The Sherman Tank what an amazing vehicle!! - Page 15

sapper · 13-03-2007, 01:12 PM

Hi Owen
A good debate mate! no troubles at all. Thanks for your message my old friend.
Sapper

Owen · 13-03-2007, 01:23 PM

Glad we can discuss things from opposite sides and still remain calm.
Not like the old days eh?
Good thread, thanks for starting it Kev, (kfz).

Gotthard Heinrici · 13-03-2007, 02:12 PM

I think that the Sherman was a fantastic tank and has a reputation that may have been less than deserved. What tank could better it? The Mark IV was out-dated by 1944 and it was only by fitting large amounts of external armor that it was able to take to the field. The Panther never appeared in numbers that was going to change the course of the war whilst the Tiger although it could dominate a battlefield was a mechanical nightmare and prone to breaking down.

The only tank that could come near to the Sherman was the T-34 and I stand corrected if someone has a m ore informed opinion on this.

As regards the use of tanks well the Germans had enough practice of being on the Defensive to perfect tactics to maximise their use. It will always cost the attacking side more in materiel, far easier to defend.

kfz · 13-03-2007, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gotthard Heinrici

The only tank that could come near to the Sherman was the T-34 and I stand corrected if someone has a m ore informed opinion on this.

.

Yep, the T34 is also pretty amazing, A big jump forward, very influtential vehicle, but it just doesnt have the record that the Sherman has. Never seen any pics of T34's wading ashore on a Coral attol, or ploughing though Normandy hedgerows or driving from Cario to Tunis, sitting on a Hill in Italy, etc, etc. it was the same tank that did this. Gotta respect that.

Gotthard Heinrici · 13-03-2007, 10:39 PM

I should also point out that Shermans remained in Active service in the Israeli Defence Forces until the Yom Kippur War in 1973 and was able to take on T-55's and the like!

Za Rodinu · 13-03-2007, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kfz

Yep, the T34 is also pretty amazing, A big jump forward, very influtential vehicle, but it just doesnt have the record that the Sherman has. Never seen any pics of T34's wading ashore on a Coral attol, or ploughing though Normandy hedgerows or driving from Cario to Tunis, sitting on a Hill in Italy, etc, etc. it was the same tank that did this. Gotta respect that.

I find this somewhat disingenious... How many T-34s have ever been in the Pacific islands, Normandy, Tunis or been hill hopping in Italy? I can say with the same clearness (or blurriness) of conscience that the T-34 started from Stalingrad and ended up in Berlin. At least General V.I.Chuikov did exactly that!

And there are still T-34s in service today.

Owen · 14-03-2007, 11:31 AM

If a Sherman had damage to a suspension unit would it be a case of old one off new one on in a short time?
If, say, a Cromwell, Comet or T34 had damage to it's suspension would that be a considerably longer job?
On that tank restoration program on UKTV awhile back, when fixing the Comets suspension didn't they have to remove the side armour to put new shock-absorbers in?

von Poop · 14-03-2007, 11:53 AM

Look at a Sherman's suspension whether VVSS or HVSS it may look a little unsophisticated but it is modular. The entire bogie lifts off and can pretty much be replaced by any other bogie from any period of the design whether trailing idler wheel or earlier. Most other contempary suspensions required more dismantling to access the actual springing or torsion bars than was easily done in the field (German torsion bar designs could require removing several interleaved wheels on both sides of the vehicle as the bar had to be inserted from the opposite side). Sherman ones could at least be exchanged quickly and the damaged part fixed 'at leisure' without the vehicle being out of commision for too long.

Edit: Just thought I'd better add for clarity that VVSS and HVSS were not interchangeable systems, both however remained modular.

spidge · 14-03-2007, 01:47 PM

I recall reading once that at one stage just after the Ardennes offensive, there were huge amounts of Shermans available, however not enough tankers to man them.

Another I read was the following analogy:

Shermans were replaced in multiples, lose 10 today and 20 were available tomorrow. Much like the seemingly endless replacements in the Russian infantry.

Za Rodinu · 14-03-2007, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Von Poop

...The entire bogie lifts off and can pretty much be replaced by any other bogie from any period of the design whether trailing idler wheel or earlier.

Just like the Pz IV!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Von Poop

(German torsion bar designs could require removing several interleaved wheels ...

Exception: Pz III

13-03-2007, 02:12 PM	#143 (permalink)
Gotthard Heinrici Ostfront is where its at! Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 3,850	I think that the Sherman was a fantastic tank and has a reputation that may have been less than deserved. What tank could better it? The Mark IV was out-dated by 1944 and it was only by fitting large amounts of external armor that it was able to take to the field. The Panther never appeared in numbers that was going to change the course of the war whilst the Tiger although it could dominate a battlefield was a mechanical nightmare and prone to breaking down. The only tank that could come near to the Sherman was the T-34 and I stand corrected if someone has a m ore informed opinion on this. As regards the use of tanks well the Germans had enough practice of being on the Defensive to perfect tactics to maximise their use. It will always cost the attacking side more in materiel, far easier to defend. __________________ *"The Eastern front is like a house of cards. If the front is broken through at one point all the rest will collapse."* - General Heinz Guderian

13-03-2007, 10:39 PM	#145 (permalink)
Gotthard Heinrici Ostfront is where its at! Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 3,850	I should also point out that Shermans remained in Active service in the Israeli Defence Forces until the Yom Kippur War in 1973 and was able to take on T-55's and the like! __________________ *"The Eastern front is like a house of cards. If the front is broken through at one point all the rest will collapse."* - General Heinz Guderian

14-03-2007, 11:53 AM	#148 (permalink)
von Poop I Like Tanks Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Perfidious Albion. Posts: 8,357	Look at a Sherman's suspension whether VVSS or HVSS it may look a little unsophisticated but it is modular. The entire bogie lifts off and can pretty much be replaced by any other bogie from any period of the design whether trailing idler wheel or earlier. Most other contempary suspensions required more dismantling to access the actual springing or torsion bars than was easily done in the field (German torsion bar designs could require removing several interleaved wheels on both sides of the vehicle as the bar had to be inserted from the opposite side). Sherman ones could at least be exchanged quickly and the damaged part fixed 'at leisure' without the vehicle being out of commision for too long. Edit: Just thought I'd better add for clarity that VVSS and HVSS were not interchangeable systems, both however remained modular. __________________ It's only the Internet. Last edited by von Poop; 14-03-2007 at 12:29 PM.

14-03-2007, 01:47 PM	#149 (permalink)
spidge Legendary Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 8,025	I recall reading once that at one stage just after the Ardennes offensive, there were huge amounts of Shermans available, however not enough tankers to man them. Another I read was the following analogy: Shermans were replaced in multiples, lose 10 today and 20 were available tomorrow. Much like the seemingly endless replacements in the Russian infantry. __________________ Spidge, ------------------------------------------------------- My Avatar is the memorial to the 22 Commonwealth Coastwatchers at the Temakin Cemetery on Betio (Tarawa Atoll) who were beheaded by the Japanese on 15th October 1942. http://www.dva.gov.au/media/publicat...mem_beito.html "You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor and you will have war." (Winston Churchill made this prophetic pronouncement in a House of Commons speech in 1938, just after Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain signed the Munich agreement with Hitler. Chamberlain returned from Germany with the signed agreement in hand, proclaiming that "peace in our time" had been achieved. Churchill attacked Chamberlain's "politics of appeasement" in this and many other speeches.) What did the Australians do in ww2 and other conflicts? Check out this site: http://www.diggerhistory.info/00-pag...ster-index.htm

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13-03-2007, 01:12 PM	#141 (permalink)
sapper WW2 Veteran Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,510	Hi Owen A good debate mate! no troubles at all. Thanks for your message my old friend. Sapper

13-03-2007, 01:23 PM	#142 (permalink)
Owen Top Moose Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Under the stairs Posts: 9,302	Glad we can discuss things from opposite sides and still remain calm. Not like the old days eh? Good thread, thanks for starting it Kev, (kfz).

14-03-2007, 11:31 AM	#147 (permalink)
Owen Top Moose Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Under the stairs Posts: 9,302	If a Sherman had damage to a suspension unit would it be a case of old one off new one on in a short time? If, say, a Cromwell, Comet or T34 had damage to it's suspension would that be a considerably longer job? On that tank restoration program on UKTV awhile back, when fixing the Comets suspension didn't they have to remove the side armour to put new shock-absorbers in?

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