The Sherman Tank what an amazing vehicle!!

[Gotthard Heinrici]

no problem!! Just all part of the service

[von Poop]

Originally Posted by Gotthard Heinrici

The role of tactical airpower in the west in 1944 cannot be overstated.

Yes it can, and it often is.
Highly effective but not in the actual destruction of armour so often claimed, the effects were more subtle than many believe.

Originally Posted by 4th wilts

did typhoon pilots destroy as many tanks as they claimed.

No.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Gotthard Heinrici]

Originally Posted by Von Poop

Yes it can, and it often is.
Highly effective but not in the actual destruction of armour so often claimed, the effects were more subtle than many believe.

No.

Cheers,
Adam.

not in terms of ACTUAL losses, but in terms of forcing the Germans to factor it in when they were planning. The fact that the Panzerwaffe could not move in daylight or at least believed they couldnt was of enormous help. I do agree that actual losses were overstated but it was more than that.

[von Poop]

Sorry mate, hadn't registered you began by referring to freedom of movement, the old knee started jerking at the 'can't be overstated' bit... because it can .

Just getting to the actual vehicle comparison section in Buckley's 'British Armour in the Normandy Campaign', the books proved fascinating on Doctrine and the situation as faced by the Anglo-Canadian tankers so hopefully he'll have some more insight into the technological battle, and just exactly what the British Shermans were up against.
(fascinating book by the way, quite a few bits so far that really make one go 'hmmmm', not exactly easy going but patently good stuff.)

Cheers,
Adam

[Erich]

well gents concerning Normandie as a operation the Wehrmacht ground forces did have freedom of movement their own films prove this, but consider the use of camo and brush/trees for camo, something the German forces had used very little of until the actions in France, true the German units had to contend with Allied air power in the form of the dreaded "jabo's" and certainly this held up the needed replacements to the thinned front lines.

lets agree that the Sherman was mass produced which really made a huge difference on the western battlefields as the T-34 and it's variants on the Ost front. As to the German units getting hammered on the Ost front earlier in the war and wasted away there is also truth in that but the W-SS armor units as examples had been rebuilt and the British/US forces felt the brunt of the 7.5's and 8.8's on numerous occassions even before the Shermans 75mm could get in range

[Gotthard Heinrici]

Originally Posted by Von Poop

Sorry mate, hadn't registered you began by referring to freedom of movement, the old knee started jerking at the 'can't be overstated' bit... because it can .

Just getting to the actual vehicle comparison section in Buckley's 'British Armour in the Normandy Campaign', the books proved fascinating on Doctrine and the situation as faced by the Anglo-Canadian tankers so hopefully he'll have some more insight into the technological battle, and just exactly what the British Shermans were up against.
(fascinating book by the way, quite a few bits so far that really make one go 'hmmmm', not exactly easy going but patently good stuff.)

Cheers,
Adam

Dont worry, I think I went over the top with the remark. I'm on your side in hte Air v tank debate!!!!! I was definitely an important factor but I dont think air to ground attack was THAT effective in terms of Tanks destroyed.

[MikB]

Originally Posted by Gotthard Heinrici

...but I dont think air to ground attack was THAT effective in terms of Tanks destroyed.

Beg to disagree. Photos of heavy German armour taken out by air attack show enormously greater damage than any Allied ground A/T weapon could ever have inflicted.

Regards,
MikB

[Owen]

The massed concentrations of Artillery including Naval Gunnery* helped break up many a German attack.

* At certain beachheads such as Anzio, Salerno Normandy etc

[4th wilts]

so the british army 7arm div used the new cromwell a very mobile tank,with a very good engine and suspention.i believe it had a 6pdr gun,and then a 75mm gun.how good or bad was the 6pdr and 75mm gun,compaired to the 75 mm of the sherman.did it have better armour than the m4.did they suddenly find the cromwell lacking when it went into battle and then start on the comet.yours lee.

[Owen]

Here's an extract from 7SLI History about a 8th Armd Bde Firefly giving VERY close Infantry support.