Lancaster Upper Turret?

[Kyt]

Whilst looking for some info for another thread I came across this picture. I'm intrigued by the guns in the upper turret, as they don't look like .303s (could they be covers over the gun, making them look so big)?

VN-G Lancaster Mk 1, Serial ED588

50 Squadron 3/1943

Lister Walker 2nd row, 2nd from left

(NOTE: It is suspected that this is 115 Squadron and the 50 Squadron Lancaster pictured was simply used as a backdrop for the photo)

W/O Lister Walker

[adrian roberts]

Could it be a Lincoln?
Only possible if the caption is completely wrong of course
The Lincoln had 2x 0.5s or 2x 20mm in the mid-upper turret.
The proportions of the fuselage of this a/c look wrong for a Lancaster - the Lincoln had a lengthened fuselage.

[Kyt]

Adrian, you're a star. 50 Squadron replaced their Lancs for Lincolns in July 1946, and continued to use the VN code until they were disbanded in 1951.

ED588 was lost 29/30 Aug 1944.

I think the caption writer seems to have made a number of mistakes (might go back to the site and give them these details). I wondered what 115 Squadron were doing infront of a 50 Squadron plane (different bases).

Cheers Adrian

[Harry Ree]

The aircraft could be a Lancaster Mark 1.(the photograph is dated March 1943).Later production models of the Mark 1 had Fraser Nash FN 82 (2 x .5 Brownings) included in the MU position.

ED 588, a Mark 1, was in the fourth production batch of 620 aircraft manufactured by AVRO at Newton Heath,Manchester.Deliveries to the RAF commenced in November 1942 and and were completed in June 1943.ED 588 was one of the 129 Mark 1s which were envisaged as and remained as Mark 1s off the production line.The rest which were envisaged as Mark 1s became Mark 111s on the production line.

ED 588 was issued first to 97 Squadron who were at Woodhall in March 1943. ED 888's operational record was said to include no major raids with 97 Squadron but in that month according to the photograph it is shown with No 50 Squadron who were at Skellingthorpe.Its record shows a transfer to No 50 Squadron with no date but its first operation with No 50 Squadron was to Berlin on the night of 27/28 March 1943

The aircraft carried out at least 116 operations before being lost over Konisburg which must have been one of the longest distances to a RAF target.A long round trip.

Regarding the VN-G photograph,the web site author's father would have outside Bomber Command in March 1943.

Still an interesting site which requires fine tuning in some areas.

[Kyt]

I thought the Fraser Nash FN 82 was a 0.5 variation of the tail gun

[WebPilot]

The fuselage roundels on this machine certainly show that this photo was not taken in 1943, but post 1947. I would concur that this is a Lincoln rather than a Lancaster

[Kyt]

I emailed the site explaining the reason we (yes, I credited the good work of the forum members) think that the caption was wrong, and got a nice email back.


From the site editor:

"I could not determine where we obtained the date "March 1943" for this photo. I also examined the
original and there are no markings on it to indicate when it was taken. The only real proof we
have of the aircrafts identity is the squadron code VN-G clearly seen in the picture.

Based on this code we assumed it was a Lancaster and therefore must be ED588 which was assigned
this code. The key word here is "assumed". It is logical that if the squadron traded in their Lanc's
for Lincoln's in 1946 that the code VN-G would be assigned to one of the new Lincoln's. However,
while I can not find fault with your points, I feel it would also be wrong to state for certain
this is a Lincoln based only by the fact it has 20mm cannons and not the normal 303 machine guns. Is
it possible that some Lanc's were refitted with cannons? Not being familiar with the Lanc's or
Lincoln's I can offer no proof of such happening, but I do know that with the Blenheim's nearly every type of armourment imaginable was tried at one time or another. Perhaps you could advise if this is a valid possibility."

To which I replied:

"Thank you for your reply to my email. I have an interest the Second World War, at a very amateur level, but as a member of a discussion forum (www.ww2talk.com) I am fortunate to be able to draw upon the resources of a lot of knowledgeable people. So credit really lies with them in helping in this matter.
There are two main points as to the captioning of the photograph:
1) The aircraft code VN-G. VN, as you know, was for 50 Squadron. However, the ‘G’ was allocated to a number of aircraft, over the course of the squadron’s history (if and when an aircraft was destroyed or transferred). So far, I have only been able to establish that Lancasters ED478 (10th April 1943), R5735 (15th August 1942), and ED588 (29th August 1944), all coded VN-G were lost, and Lancaster W4315 had been allocated the code VN-G, whilst in the service of 50 Squadron between October 1942 and the first few months of 1943, but was lost after being transferred to 61 Squadron (lost 28th January 1944). For now, I’m afraid I don’t have access to 50 Squadron’s service history, and so cannot verify any other details. In the near future, I shall be visiting the National Archives at Kew for some other research, and I’ll keep this on my ‘to-do’ list. As an aside, the question of VN-G arose when another member of the aforementioned forum posted a picture of W4315, looking for some information. In a round about way, I discovered your site (a lucky but pleasing find).

2) You are right in saying that captioning, with certainity, based just on a turret, could be difficult. And yes, a variety of armaments were tried over the course of the war. However, what seems to convince me about the Lincoln attribution is that, firstly, it looks so much like a Lincoln turret (an argument that would not pass in a court of law). However, a very good description of the attempts to develop a 20 mm turret for the Lancaster can be found here:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/lancaster-turret-4834.html

I have to admit that I had to ask for assistance when I first saw the turret myself, thinking that it was the standard .303 (or less common 0.5) guns with covers. However, after being pointed in the direction of Lincoln photos, I’ve come to the conclusion that, even with covers, the standard MGs would be much smaller. And the turret is the wrong shape."


I've not received a reply yet (has only been a few days). Does my email reply seem OK?

I will certainly add WebPilot's additional information when I hear back from the site editor.

[Gnomey]

I would agree with Webpilot and say for sure that is a Lincoln and not a Lancaster. The Lancaster wasn't fitted with that type of 20mm turret (certainly not the Lancaster in question).

[Harry Ree]

Originally Posted by Kyt

I thought the Fraser Nash FN 82 was a 0.5 variation of the tail gun

True,I can only say mishandled my notes.

I have looked through the Lincoln at War publication for a chance photograph shot of VN-G without success.

Regarding the Lincoln B 1,82 were manufactured and a few entered squadron service in 1945-1946 but were quickly withdrawn and replaced with B 11s.

Regarding .5 machine guns.These became available as 2 x.5 Browning No 2 Mark 2 machine guns for the Martin 250 CE 23A Mid Upper turret in April 1945 after being ordered from the US two years previously. The Martin turret was fitted first to the prototype NN 801 derived from the Lancaster B 1.

This derivative received the designation Mark V11.The Mark V11 (FE) was the tropicalised version which became standard on all post war production models from August 1945.

NN 801 never entered squadron service but was issued to the Blind Landing Experimental Unit at Boscombe and struck off charge on 20 November 1953.

However,180 production Lancaster Mark B V11s were built by Austins with the Martin Mid Upper Turret placed further forward (38ft 5.5 inches from the nose to the turret centre)

It might be that VN-G was one of these Lancaster Mark V11s,although the recorded "on charge" for No 50 Squadron was Lancaster B1s and B111s. Lincoln B2s were received by No 50 Squadron in July 1946 but the Lancasters remained with the squadron until October 1946.

Keep digging.

[WebPilot]

You're quite right about the MkVII turret (as seen on KB889 at Duxford today - http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/mus/uk/duxford/dux2.jpg). However as this shot shows, a .50 equipped Martin turret looks quite different from that in the photo under discussion: Duxford

I am fairly certain that the post war D type roundels that are in evidence on the photo were not adopted until 1947 - in 1946 most Lancasters still sported the wartime C type roundel as on KB889. I doubt that the Lancasters would have been repainted with new markings as they were about to be pensioned off.

Edit - the photo can be positively dated by the D type roundel which places the time that it was taken as after June 1947 Royal Air Force roundels: Information from Answers.com (though this is a weblink and you probably know what I think of using webpages as "proof", I have confirmed this is correct from independent sources). The use of wartime style squadron codes was abandoned from 1949, although it would not have occurred overnight - however this means we can say with some degree of certainty that the photo was taken in the period between June 1947 and 1949/1950. This in tandem with the turret guns would seem to confirm that this is Lincoln, not a Lanc. :-)