Bikes ID

[handtohand22]

Everyone seemed to learn how to ride motor bikes during the war. Sandbostel Concentration Camp had a large/wide perimiter and the only way to patrol it was to learn how to ride a motor bike. One of these shots may be outside Sandbostel, Germany, not sure.

[Owen]

Rich Payne is the bike man!

Hmm, probably at least a Royal Enfield, Matchless and maybe BSA? Just off the top of my head. Like Owen says, Rich is your fella.

[Owen]

Been looking at this with Father-in-law.
Left to right.
1.BSA M20 500cc
2.Norton WD 16H
3. BSA M20
4.BSA M20
5.Norton WD 16H

Reckon they are M20 500cc as more produced during the war than the BSA M21 600cc.
Also no Royal Enfields as crank case shape wrong.

edited in Nortons.

[von Poop]

Relieved you reckon 3 are the same model too.

Is it just me or is this exceptionally difficult unless you're a real connoisseur/owner, were bikes made to standard 'WD' patterns? Many vehicles were but the scale of the bikes seems to make details much harder to spot. I'm off to Amazon/ebay for a decent book on it!

[von Poop]

Re. Your PM'd request to check Nortons Owen; I reckon you, or your father in law are on the money there with the 16H, I've got some good pics that seem to match the minor details very well. There's also something of the post-war Norton in that tank shape isn't there? (wonder if any of those pictured eventually found their way via some tarting up to Cafe racer status. )
The failure of 'The Bible' to help much with the 2 wheelers is definitely going to cost me.

Can anyone reccomend good books on Allied military bikes?

I've got good stuff on the Axis models and can spot a Harley but am definitely pretty sketchy on the Commonwealth gear.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Kyt]

Got the latest catalogue from Ian Allen publishing a few days ago, and saw these books:

Ian Allan Publishing

(the site is a bit slow)

[handtohand22]

Thanks for all that folks.

[Owen]

George Wilkinson sent me this picture of his Uncle Lorne Marr of ASH of Canada in Jamacia.
My Father-in-Law thinks it's a Harley-Davidson V-Twin.
We've looked on Net for it and yup it is.
Canadians used Harleys and Indians.

[Rich Payne]

Thanks for the vote of confidence there. Owen and his father-in-law are actually bang on with their identifications. The BSA WM20 and the Norton WD 16H were produced in far greater numbers than any other machine and the other bikes which saw service outside of the UK were generally overhead valve. They were both basically modified pre-war civilian models.

1) is a BSA WM20 to a later war specification and the census number begining C5... would indicate around a 1943 production date. The white bar above the arm of service marking suggests corps troops and the "14" CB Troops Royal Artillery. Corps insignia looks to be the rampant boar of 30 Corps.

2) Norton WD16H to 1940 specification. Still has pre-war style handlebar levers rather than the later standardised WD pattern. The lack of a toolbox fitted to the rear chainstay suggests part of contract C.7353 which were fitted with steel pannier style boxes. (The canvas panniers and universal frames were a later development). Orchard & Madden indicate that many of this contract went to Egypt. The non "C" number on the front plate makes me wonder if this was issued to an Indian Army unit.

3) WM20 C5129002 produced to contract S1048 and probably produced in 1943. If the Arm of Service marking is red over blue then this ties in with the "14" on the helmet to indicate RA.

4) BSA M20 once again. Is it bike no.1 ?

5) Norton WD 16H C4397... indicates 1940 contract C.7353 The pannier tool box is visible mounted on the rear carrier. Still has the black manila insert rather than a later steel black-out mask. The fact that headlight and speedo are still present would probably suggest around 1941 rather than any later.

Most 16Hs and M20s ended their lives pulling sidecars post-war. With only 12 - 14 horsepower on tap, it is most unlikely that any became café racers ! No self-respecting Rocker would have been seen on one !

Orchard & Madden's "British Forces Motorcycles 1925 - 1945" is the only comprehensive listing of all WD bikes but it is not specifically a recognition guide. The Gavin Birch book has many nice photos from the IWM archives but is not 100% reliable with its captions (mind you, neither is the latest version of Orchard & Madden as the new colour section includes a Triumph labelled as an Ariel. That is an unexpected error in a thoroughly well-researched book).

Rich.