Battlegroup Fehrmann Tiger v. three British Comets, 3RTR

Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by SDP, Jan 6, 2012.

  1. barutcuzade

    barutcuzade Junior Member

  2. barutcuzade

    barutcuzade Junior Member

  3. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    Saw these and thought of you...

    From: The River Rhine to the Baltic Sea - the VIII Corps operational history (or possibly 'an' VIII Corps operational history as it might have been republished in a different format c1948)


    Interesting air photos and the ground is not much changed today. The bridge-keeper's house next to the road bridge still exists and the shape of the forests is little changed. The only significant development is the large number of holiday chalets built in the wood near the Aller. The railway is still in use, unlike a number of other local lines in this area. Seeing the number of ponds etc on the right bank of the Aller just to the north of the road bridge (which was the area of the rafting site) one can understand why a bulldozer is evident in the IWM picture of the rafting operation. The going must have been awful and I would think it likely that all vehicles would have had to have been dragged/winched across this area. Not sure if there is any mention of this in Langdon's accounts but I think I know someone who might know!
     
  4. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Not sure if there is any mention of this in Langdon's accounts but I think I know someone who might know!

    Langdon is very brief in his description, much along the lines of "me and Elstob crossed by raft, were joined by Brindle and we positioned ourselves astride the centre line awaiting further orders" (Note: my words not his).

    I'll post scans of the appropriate pages from Langdons book 'The Sharp End' later today (unless I get sidetracked by the Olympic Games Opening Ceremony, which is highly likely :)).

    The 3RTR War Diary is equally understated as per its normal style; it doesn't even mention the clash with the Tiger on 12th April 1945 but does mention the raft and a Tiger being knocked out on Friday 13th April 1945.
     
  5. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Saw these and thought of you...

    From: The River Rhine to the Baltic Sea - the VIII Corps operational history (or possibly 'an' VIII Corps operational history as it might have been republished in a different format c1948)

    Be warned that there is some distortion - they are photos, not scans. I didn't want to stress the spine of the book.

    The text isn't detailed enough to add anything here. There is a list of bridges built along the Corps' route, but no mentiion of the rafts!

    Fascinating photos; does the book make any reference to the original source of these photos? I'm obviously wondering whether there are any more in this series.
     
  6. idler

    idler GeneralList

    No, I assume they were just everyday recce photos. The place to check for more would be TARA - The Aerial Reconnaissance Archive - now in Edinburgh.
     
  7. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    No, I assume they were just everyday recce photos. The place to check for more would be TARA - The Aerial Reconnaissance Archive - now in Edinburgh.

    I'm truely amazed at the information out there. Thanks again.
     
  8. idler

    idler GeneralList

    The worry is that local air recce photos of targets may not have made it back here to TARA. I'm afraid I don't know enough about the workings of the RAF to know if all photo recce was done from the UK, or did some units move over to NWE as the campaign progressed?

    Of course, unit or formation war diaries sometimes include copies of airphotos, so that's worth checking. One of the captions suggests an approximate date.
     
  9. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

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    Attached Files:

  10. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    Keele University used to hold the air recce photos and I bought some from them. But this was years ago (the last time in approx 1992) so it would seem that they have since been moved to Edinburgh.

    John
     
  11. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    The photograph shows a Comet tank from either A or C Sqn 3 RTR bypassing F01 during the British advance up the Ostenholz Road. The shadows indicate that the photograph was taken in the early to mid-afternoon; F01 was knocked out at 1030 hours on 13 April. The Comet has the Cromwell-style exhaust cowl and the Black Bull divisional symbol is just discernible. Both rear mud deflectors have been suitably mashed. Judging by the way the verge is chewed up the Comet must be one of the later ones to move up the road and the very relaxed attitude of the crew indicates they are clearly not expecting contact with the enemy. F01 was subsequently pushed off the road onto the verge in order to clear the route and the majority of photos of F01 show it in this location. The attitude of F01 is interesting. Significantly the tank is set square on the road and its gun can be seen pointing to approximately 11 o’clock. Ulrich Saft in his book 'Krieg in der Heimat' states that when Franzen caught sight, out of the corner of his eye, of Sgt Harding's Comet 100m on his left flank he ordered his gunner to traverse the turret. His order to traverse the gun seems strange to me...

    The Tiger's turret was driven by the engine via a transfer case but the traverse speed was notoriously slow and was dependent on the rpm of the engine. The gunner alone had control of the power traverse, via a foot pedal. At 2000 rpm (near maximum revs without damaging the engine) and with the power traverse system in high ratio it would take some 5 seconds to traverse 90 degrees; if in low ratio some 19 seconds. F01‘s turret needed to traverse left at least 90 degrees as the most likely track on which Sgt Harding was approaching the Ostenholz Road is at right angles to the road. For comparison, a modern main battletank would do the same traverse in approximately 2 seconds with the commander able to acquire targets and, if necessary, traverse the turret independently from the gunner.

    Even assuming the engine was at 2000 rpm and the power traverse system in high ratio this was going to be a race F01 was unlikely to win. More effective orders from Franzen would have been to order “neutral left” to the driver immediately followed by “traverse left” to the gunner. Given the very slow traverse speed he would need to give the order to the driver before the order to the gunner. The Tiger was capable of neutral turns (ie pivoting on the spot with one track turning forward, the other in reverse) and as long as the engine was running this could still be achieved even if the tank was in neutral gear. Angling the tank to the threat would have had the dual effect of bringing the gun to bear quicker and would have presented increasingly angled armour to an incoming shot. Although the Tiger’s turret and superstructure armour was 80mm thick, reducing the tank’s attitude of 90 degrees to the threat would have added to the armour’s thickness while increasing the chance of ricochet. Franzen, the commander, should have known this as an experienced tankman but from the tank’s position on the road it is clear that he never gave two orders. 20/20 hindsight is a fine thing but still this is puzzling...

    Two further observations:

    1. Ammunition for the Tiger’s main armament was held in bins either side of the hull and, looking at the vehicle side on, immediately below the turret. Although it is reported that Sgt Harding’s shot hit the engine compartment, the AP shot hole is extremely close to the left-hand rear bin. An AP round hitting the bin could have catastrophic results so this was a lucky escape for F01‘s crew. But perhaps the bin was empty. Regardless of the ammo bin and its contents, a few inches to the left and the round would have entered the main fighting compartment.

    2. The 4KSLI war diary reports that in the morning of 13 Apr two of the battalion’s 6pdr attack guns scored 7 hits on the Tiger with both guns subsequently being knocked out. At 1100 hours the diary recorded that the Tiger was knocked out by 3 RTR but had already been crippled by the battalion’s anti-tank guns. I think this is wishful thinking. First, although a 6pdr firing APDS was capable of penetrating the frontal armour of a Tiger there is absolutely no sign of any strike marks on F01’s armour or its sprockets/tracks; second there is no record in the otherwise quite detailed German reports of F01 being struck by any anti-tank rounds, no matter 7; and third F01 was still very much in action when attacked by Sgt Harding.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. sirjahn

    sirjahn Member

    All WW II recce photos are now centralized at TARA in Edinburgh. You can scan their site to see if anything is available electronically or pay for a search by a grid coordinate and date range.

    Search Results
     
  13. barutcuzade

    barutcuzade Junior Member

    JDKR, for some reason I remember reading at one point that F01's power traverse mechanism was not in working order at the time it was put out of action. If that was the case and the loader was trying to traverse and aim manually, that can possible explain the short turning radius the gun achieved by the time it was knocked out...
     
  14. barutcuzade

    barutcuzade Junior Member

    I went back and did some searches and I need to correct my earlier stmt.

    Book "Tigers in Combat 2" pp.404-408 states that:

    "A PIAT shell hit the turret of Fehrmann's F01 and damaged the traversing gear and while 2 other Tigers moved up to flank it, it retreated to a nearby hill. The 5 Tigers then returned to Frille with around 30 POWs.
    ...
    Franzen's F01 which had earlier returned to Fallingbostel with the damaged
    turret gear was ready to go again on April 12, and was cobbled into the hastily
    formed "Kampfgruppe Grossan" along with a couple of other scrounded Tigers."


    .......sooooooooooooo.... I guess the mechanism was knocked out a day or two earlier and we may never know for sure but there is a good chance that it was not actually fixed with the repairs made at Fallingbostel by the time it met its demise.
     
  15. barutcuzade

    barutcuzade Junior Member

    On a separate note, further reviewing the second picture of the F01, I think I see what seems like a discarded German M style helmet on the ground with some clothing next to it. Were there any infantry present at the time F01 was knocked out or is this from the crew that abandoned the tank? I did not think the German tankers were issued M style helmets or if so that they carried it with them in the tank.

    Any one care to coment?
     
  16. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    On a separate note, further reviewing the second picture of the F01, I think I see what seems like a discarded German M style helmet on the ground with some clothing next to it. Were there any infantry present at the time F01 was knocked out or is this from the crew that abandoned the tank? I did not think the German tankers were issued M style helmets or if so that they carried it with them in the tank.

    Any one care to coment?

    Well spotted about the helmet. I don't know the answer except to say that the 12th-13th April 1945 featured some very heavy fighting in the area and this photo was taken after F01 had been pushed to the side of the road (by the British); this implies that the helmet got to that position several hours after F01 had been knocked out by Sgt Harding. Possibly discarded by a POW? ....could also be lots of other reasons. Now....if only Franzen or someone else who was 'there' was a member of this Forum!
     
  17. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    Have just been contacted by Steve who tells me that it is a Cromwell bypassing F01 not a Comet. Mea culpa. The lack of return rollers being the give away. I'm sure he is right. That then raises an interesting question as to which unit the Cromwell belongs to as it cannot be 3 RTR. My understanding is it could be from: 15/19H (11 Armd Div armd recce regt); or a command tank from HQ 29 Armd Bde; or an artillery OP tank; or a contact tank for the Air Sp Sigs Unit. All of which had Cromwells. I think the one that can be discounted is 15/19H as although the regt crossed the Aller on 13 Apr it then headed east with 1 Cheshires in the direction of Winsen and did not head up the Ostenholz Road. Anyone got any ideas?

    Now for the points made by Barutcuzade. Saft states that F01 received a new mantlet at Fallingbostel on or about 10 Apr. Assuming this is correct there is no reason why F01 should not have been in functioning order for its last battle on the Ostenholz road - and there are no indications that it was not fully functional. If the traverse system was damaged (Saft does not mention this) and not running off the engine then it was in serious trouble as it would take 180 turns of the handle to rotate the turret through 90 degrees. Assuming it took 0.5 seconds to complete one turn of the handle (I have no idea if this is correct but it would seem a reasonable guess) it would take 90 seconds to turn the turret through 90 degrees. Not good news in an ambush setting and all the more reason to order the driver to do an immediate neutral turn to the left!

    Ref the helmet. Who knows who it belonged to but there were at least two companies from SS A.u.E. Btl 12 'Hitler Jugend' fighting in this area of the Essel forest during the period in question so it either came from them or it belonged to a crew member of F01.

    To add to the discussion about wartime detritus visible near F01 - visible in the attached photo of F01 just in front of the left sprocket is what appears to be a panzerfaust. It must have been discarded by an infantryman as it most certainly would not have belonged to F01.
     
  18. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    For some reason the photo didn't attach...
     

    Attached Files:

  19. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    I have re-read Saft's account and did not get Franzen's order 100% correct. According to Saft, Franzen shouted' "Enemy tank, 10 o'clock" when he saw Harding's Comet. The Comet's AP round then penetrated F01's flank, smashed the left fuel tank and the tank immediately caught fire.

    Assuming the words of the order are correctly recorded by Saft I draw the following points from it:

    1. The order seems much more credible for an experienced tank commander as it would have triggered simultaneous, immediate SOP actions from his crew, namely for the gunner to traverse the turret and for the driver to slew the tank to face the threat. If the gun was unloaded - very unlikely in F01's circumstances - then the loader would also slam an AP round into the breech. I think we can assume that the gun was loaded but it is just possible that it contained an HE round due to the presence of enemy infantry and light armour. If it need to be reloaded with an AP round then this would have taken precious time.

    2. The ambush was sufficiently quick for the vehicle to make no movement to face the threat before the tank was hit (as evidenced by the photo of F01 on the road). The turret's position could suggest some traverse to the left had been made but perhaps the barrel was already at this position.

    3. Saft's record that the round hit the fuel tank tallies with the position of the AP penetration.

    Where Franzen got it badly wrong was to get ahead of his accompanying infantry as they could, at the very least, have given him early warning of the presence of British armour or, at best, taken on the Comets with panzerfaust. In the forest the infantry would have had a marked advantage in this confrontation and F01 might have survived to fight another day (but probably only one!)
     
  20. barutcuzade

    barutcuzade Junior Member

    JDKR that's very curious... "Enemy at 10" would mean F01 was slightly behind from the 90 degree view angle (i.e. 9 o'clock) from Harding when Franzen spotted it but yet the penetration is slightly to the behind of the center of the tank. And it does not seem like an angled entry. So possibly he tried to outrun "the shot" by speeding up and getting out of sight by going behind the tree line?
     

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