Hi! Can anyone with experience in the British Military archive system please tell me if the number 202114 can be used to find the id of this TWM? Service number maybe? What was the Intelligence corps, and why without army pay? 5408 SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 19 SEPTEMBER, 1941 INTELLIGENCE CORPS. The undermentioned to be 2nd Lts.: — 24th June 1941: — Thomas William MURRAY (202114), without Army pay and allces. Regards Svein Korsvold
From some of the other names in the list, they may be civilians being given an 'honorary' rank, having been employed locally for their expert knowledge or language skills. The number will be specific to Murray but his army record won't be in the public domain and it might be quite thin, anyway. The archives might be of use if you can identify the unit he served with.
Suggest you start a conversation with member - Jedburgh22 http://ww2talk.com/index.php?members/jedburgh22.15678/ TD
Thank you for Swift reply! Still trying to track down the rest of Thomas William Murray`s amazing life. Found the notice in The London Gazette. Worth checking out if this could be him. Know for a fact that he did intelligence work for the US government in the 1930s, and that he had knowledge of codes etc so that the Norwegian resistance could contact British intellingence? in May-June 1940. Need to verify if they are the same person. Maybe date of birth? Is it possible to check the service record of 202114. Any other suggestions very much appreciated! Regards Svein Korsvold
You have amassed some details for him in your other thread - Thomas W. Murray service ww2, perhaps you need to phone MOD records at Glasgow to see if you can obtain a copy of his service records even though you do not have a death certificate, if its the same man born in 1889 they cannot (or shouldnt) counter your request with the 100 year rule as he was born more than 100 years ago. I have always found then good at listening and helpful as well TD
TD, he's not in that new Army Discharge archive added to Ancestry recently for those born pre 1900 and discharged post 1920?
All UK, Military Discharge Indexes, 1920-1971 results for Thomas Murray There are 3 x T Murray born 1889 T Murray 18 Jul 1889 Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1921-1939 2201754 T Murray 6 Mar 1889 Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1939-1971 D/21200 T Murray 16 Sep 1889 Army Other Ranks, Discharges for 1939-1971 2810410 But none have the same number. Svein needs to find some factual information on this guy but he is a Walter Mitty character, so its a double problem in that is anything you find really true or just part of another story. Especially in light of his changes, or so it seems from Army to Navy to Intelligence, to Radio operator, to Spy to .............................. what next TD
Interesting charachter! Found some postings by an american? Eric Schwartz on an old Norwegian forum. Mr. Murray is mentioned in both Costal command narratives and War Diary Rear Admiral Orkneys and Shetlands. The information is specified in the Archives together with the reaction. Amongst others Skua raid on oil supplies. July 1940. This proves he had the codes and id to be heard. He is also described in Malcolm Munthes book. He met him in Bergen 1940 when both tried to get to England ASAP. We know for a fact he got the WM in ww2, but KEW did not come up with any information on ships upon my request. Nothing found. Strange! So who was this man? Only an experienced telegraphist? Born in England. Emigrated to the US after WW1. Worked in some undercover federal job in the 1930s. On the Songa. In Bergen by chance in 1940, but With the right codes etc..And next? We will find him! But how? Regards Svein
This may not help at all, But the similarities between T W Murray and another chap on that list is interesting. All those who were made up to 2nd Lt on that list are listed in Ancestry as still with the M.I. up until 1945. That is apart from George Lefoglou 191286 who is only listed to 1942 when he was killed. George Lefoglou Given Initials: G Rank: Captain Death Date: 19 Dec 1942 Number: 191286 Birth Place: Bulgaria Residence: Egypt Branch at Enlistment: Other Corps Theatre of War: Middle East Regiment at Death: Intelligence Corps Branch at Death: Other Corps Now strangely his name also comes up in the UK Shipping and Seamen ww1 and ww2 1914-1945 with two entries in the gazette 5th June and 30th June 1919 as having died. Listed under miscellaneous as, Lefoglou 83 Interpreter G. But does not come up on the CWGC site. In UK WW1 service medal & award Rolls 1914 -20, which must have been typed up after 13/11/1919 as that date is shown. He was engaged 2/12/1915 issued B.W. & V. M. 20/10/22 and is still serving. Yet he was supposed to have died In June 1919.
G Lefoglou in the British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920 Name: G Lefoglou Regiment or Corps: GSI Interpretes, Inter-Allad Prestpork Burma Regimental Number: 83, 83 TD
All UK, British Army Lists, 1882-1962 results for G Lefoglou Name: G . Lefoglou Military Year: 1941 Regiment: Inelligence Corps Rank: 2nd Lieutenant Name: G . Lefoglou Military Year: 1942 Regiment: Intelligence Corps Rank: 2nd Lieutenant Intelligence Corps (@intelligencecorps) | Instagram photos and videos .................Intelligence Corps laid a wreath at the grave of Capt George Lefoglou, Intelligence Corps (died 19/12/1942),.............................. Perhaps Svein also needs to contact The Intelligence Corps - a possible start link - The Military Intelligence Museum - Sharing the secret maybe they have files on Murray ?? TD
Hi! I sent a request for them to check for any ww2 Merchant sailor papers. CRS 10 or anything else they got on him. Their search came up negative. Strange! We know he got the WM in WW2. Svein
Svein, Of course there is the chance that there are no surviving documents. However, they usually dismiss your request unless you are specific in the files you want copied - they will not look-up first, they deem that as research so usually just dismiss your request. My advice based, on many years of MN research is 1. Visit Kew with the document references you want copied (no charge) 2. Unable to visit Kew? I would look no further than the two guys on here who do copying for a reasonable cost, much cheaper than Kew or other researchers will charge and less hassle too. The reply you got from Kew would not be good enough for me. If you are serious about your research you have to be confident the files you want are not there. Regards Hugh
Thank you for good advice! Got several jobs to keep me busy, including one in uniform , so the number one choice is difficult in the near future. I believe his grandson has contacted the two members who offer a copying service. Not sure how this turned out. Here is the reguest I sent to KEW: Order summary Catalogue reference: BT 382/1298 Instructions: Need information about Merchant telegraphist Thomas William Murray, Born 10.04.1889 in Preston. He served on a number of ships in ww1. Have his medal card (online Archive). Trying to learn more of his war service in ww2. He got the War Medal ( Online Archive). Dis A number 908377 and id number? 210235 (from his CR10 card). Summary: Interested in his ww2 service record, and anything else that can helpful in finding his location after the war, included his grave. Regards Svein Korsvold E-mail: svein@isdalstoauto.no Cost: £8.40 Just looked at his CR10 card again. Maybe the number is 928377? Regards Svein Korsvold
Can anyone With the right tools find the date of birth on this TWM? See the PDF for more info. Regards Svein Korsvold
Svein The list you have is known in the UK as a bona vacantia list. This is produced when people die and do not leave a will or testament saying what they want to happen to their 'assets' after they have died. The only information you can read from this is that he died in 1984 or just before that. You already have this information in the other thread for this person - see post#2 - Thomas W. Murray service ww2 Maybe if Admin read this they could possibly mearge the threads as we seem to keep going from one to the other. TD
OK - regarding the TWM you have shown as died 1984 his details are: Thomas William Murray in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007 Name: Thomas William Murray Birth Date: 15 Mar 1924 Date of Registration: Nov 1984 Age at Death: 60 Registration district: Warrington Inferred County: Cheshire, Lancashire Volume: 35 Page: 1010 He also shows up at TNA: Reference: BT 395/1/70875 Description: Medal listing of Murray, Thomas William Discharge number: R273571 Date of Birth: 15 March 1924 Date: [1946-2002] Held by: The National Archives, Kew Legal status: Public Record(s) Closure status: Open Document, Open Description Access conditions: Open on Transfer Name: Thomas William Murray Birth Date: 15 Mar 1924 Service: 1939-1945 Medal Issued/Claimed: 1946-2002 Discharge Number: R273571 TD