TV Programme- Dunkirk: The Forgotten Heroes ( 51st Highland)

Churchill never sacrificed anyone and it was just bad luck it happened to be the 51st Division. BEF units were going to the Maginot Line from January 1940 IIRC so it just so happened it was the 51st Divisions turn when the Germans invaded not just France as the narrator said but Holland and Belgium as well. If it had been the 3rd Divisions turn then a Guards Brigade would have been lost with that Division.

I've read Saul David's book and didn't think it was that good.

 

Whilst it was Wikipedia I checked (going to work) quickly Panzers I to III all had armour under 30mm thick so their argument is flawed if Wikipedia is to believed.

I watched the programme. It was OK but factually flawed in many places, especially the bigger picture of what was going on in France after 4th June 1940.

 

My last comment on the subject of sacrifice as it really does annoy me, like somehow it was deliberately done just because they were Scottish. If any unit has a claim to say they were sacrificed then look no further than 30 Brigade at Calais. They were probably some of the best trained, best equipped soldiers in the British Army during 1940.

 

Afraid Drew that the 'sacrifice' story will be another myth perpetuated by those who it suits and full marks to the programme for giving this angle no air time at all.

 

It makes a change, I suppose.
It's usually the Irish we British supposedly sacrifice all the time--despite swathes of our best generals being Irish--or Irish-ish.

 

Perhaps it's telling that - as far as I'm aware - the 'Spandau' in offence did not earn the same reputation it went on to earn in defence, which I'd put down to its appetite for ammunition and the perennial difficulty of dealing with belted ammo on the move.

I would add that the relative accuracy of the weapons is a bit of a red herring. An MG34/42 will be accurate enough it's not going to send out a noticeable cone or fan of bullets. From the bipod, both could be 'waggled' about as much as a Bren, so I really don't think there's much in it. Their perceived effectiveness was down to rate and continuity of fire - at least until the barrel needed changing.

 

As it happens I totally agree with Drew and would like to point out that it was the author not me who used the word 'sacrifice'. As jcb said the 'sacrifice' myth plays well with those it suits. Usually those who have a grievance agenda. The other common military one is WW1 related and states that more Scots soldiers died in the war as a proportion of the population than that of any other part of the U.K.

 

They should take that up with Haig!

 

It should be borne in mind that 51st (Highland) Division whilst a fully equipped first-line Territorial division were inexperienced and not fully trained. It seems the fact that Gort sent 51st Div to the Saar front where they should have been more protected was brought about by his concerns in this regard.

Colville (p.177) in his biography of Gort states the following:-

"Gort wrote to Stanley on 11th April, 'whether the standard is as high as in 1914, owing in great part to the greater complexity of modern warfare...The standard of training of the Territorial divisions which have arrived in France is low and in my opinion they are, as yet, fit only for static warfare'.

One of them, the 51st Highland Division was to be sent to the Saar to take its place in the line with the French, because Gort felt he could not afford to send one of his regular divisions as he had originally promised".

Of course, after the French collapse at Sedan, they found themselves fighting a mobile war and without any British higher command to support them, but this was the complete opposite of what was envisaged and certainly not a calculated intention to sacrifice them.

"Stanley" was Oliver Stanley, Minister for War who replaced Hore-Belisha after the pillbox scandal.

 

I think in general many people aren't aware of troop involvements in France after Dunkirk or that anyone did not evacuate . myself, I didn't know about the 2nd BEF until I watched the DVD of the (Canadian) 48th Highlanders who were a part of it.

Then again in Canada I probably received about 1 week of history class about WW2, no more.

 

I only learnt of the 2nd BEF from Alanbrooke's diaries.

 

Watched this on catch up last night, have to say I enjoyed it. Donald Smith was the overriding star of the show, great that he could bring it to life by pointing out key places has was at almost 80 years ago. I thought it covered quite a lot in 45 mins. Would have been nice to have a brief bit of text at the end about each of the veterans POW experiences (5 years worth!). Definitely no issue to me with open necked shirts, on screen text or the music to be fair. It will hopefully appeal to more people that way rather than those dry efforts from the 80s of comb over historians standing in fields reading from clipboards.

 

Yes I enjoyed it too , I'm sure the programme makers could have filled many hours with what they researched but they have to fit it into their time slot .
Craig

 

Well I've got the head for a comb over but no comb. Don't need one. Anyway, Lee the barber just does what he likes every two months or so and simply wouldn't let me grow any strands long enough. And I haven't got a clipboard.

I'll give it this, I failed to fall asleep watching the programme, which is normal for me, so there must have been something in it.

As for the 80's, knock off thirty years and the first TV we had stood about four feet tall with a silk screen and just got the BBC on 405 lines, not even ITV. No Coronation Street, no works of genius such as "Drinka Pinta Milka Day", Popeye, Esso Blue ( paraffin ), but the BBC had General Sir Brian Horrocks, who had receding hair but far too grand looking to have a comb over. He had a blackboard and arrows. He might have talked about biffing them with a right hook, but that could have been Montgomery.

 

Ha ha! Classic response! Sadly Horrocks was long forgotten by the time I started watching documentaries. Specialist programs rather than general appeal.
I raise you Major and Mrs Holt which was a Uni staple, as was a chap whose name I’ve forgotten. Always dressed in grey, walking towards the camera in a field talking rapidly and ending with “the advance stopped here”, pausing for dramatic effect, then darting off camera!

 

Horrocks was a great popular broadcaster from the episodes I've seen. Surprisingly perhaps from a Lieutenant General, he was very concerned with relating the mood and spirit of the troops and the experience on the ground (although he's quite at home pointing at large maps and making sweeping gestures). The result is that he's of interest to the layman (for whom he distills the big picture) and the expert (who gets an executive summary from a man with his finger on the pulse of his men).

A lot of this was owing to his being generally a good communicator (this is attested to by those who served under him) and also to his working in Parliament after the war (He served as Black Rod): a lot of organisation to do as well as keeping disparate parties happy.

Edit: Richard Holmes was by far the best military documentary man of recent times. And dont get me started on the Snow duo--competent but dull, endless distracting elements in their programmes.

 

I have to confess that I do not know of the Holt family output but I did once attend a lecture by the late Richard Holmes at Kew who also favoured the expensive checked shirt, silk tie, wool jacket, corduroy trousers, brown shoes and rode a horse when tracing the Duke of Wellington's progress abroad. His outfit may have been grey when doing a "war walk" about the August 1914 campaign in France to reflect German field grey, or is that "gray"? His programmes were excellent. Like Sir David Attenborough in that he could command the screen straight after walking out of a muddy field, very little of which actually stuck to him.

Probably shot myself in the foot there, because I don't recall seeing Sir David in a tie very much. There was a funny sequence once about Sir David standing in a river somewhere in the tropics wearing "Chino" cotton trousers and continuing on to an Embassy do or similar in the same outfit, no intervening trip to the laundry. I think he wore the same outfit throughout, and on the aeroplane home, as washed in the Amazon or similar.There was a shot of an assistant producer tidying up the frayed hems for him with some nail scissors and laughing. A mark of true greatness.

 

Richard Holmes, that's the chap! Great for the enthusiast but not likely to draw in the casual viewer sadly. I find that lecture halls or informal chats with museum volunteers give me more pleasure than TV programs on the whole. The Headcorn/Lashenden museum has been expanded recently and I got talking to a volunteer there who knows his stuff about piloted V1 bombs (they have one on display). A real insight from somebody with a clear passion for a lesser known aspect of the war.