N.Africa 1 SAS -> Stalag Luft III Escape Organiser

Discussion in 'Special Forces' started by Matt5100, Oct 12, 2018.

  1. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi Gus,

    You’re quite right about lack of service in Sicily or Italy not being a bar to eligibility to the Italy Star.

    However the commencement date for eligibility is 11th July 1943 per MOD site so if he was POW from 30th December 1942 - on the face of it - he doesn’t meet the criteria.

    Medals: campaigns, descriptions and eligibility

    The only thing I can think of is if he “escaped” after the Italian Armistice and attached himself to Italian Partisans before being recaptured?

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    how to add images to the thread explained here.
    Adding Images
     
  3. Matt5100

    Matt5100 Member

    Hi steve,
    Thanks for your email, you’re correct it’s Middle Eastern Command. I have approached the author and there is no mention in the documents. Red Cross info was applied for and accepted about 8 months ago - still waiting..

    I did say I had supporting documents, of which I have many more. I had joined the forum about an hour previously. I felt I wasn’t even given a chance. I’ve spent 2 years researching so far so I haven’t included any information I don’t have evidence for.

    I have answers for some questions and don’t have answers for others.

    I never met the man, he never told anyone of anything - i’m doing the best I can
     
  4. Matt5100

    Matt5100 Member

    Hi Gus, yeah I have all that already thanks..
     
  5. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    Thanks for the response. I can see there has been some progress since your posts yesterday evening.

    If I was you I’d reapply to Red Cross in January if you don’t hear anything before then (include fact you’ve applied previously and heard nothing). I’ve done a couple of online applications and had a reply within 4 months.

    Have you had a look in Ben McIntyre’s recent (2016) SAS book?

    Steve
     
  6. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Morning Owen,

    Is there any benefit in moving this topic from User Introductions to the Special Forces sub forum of Unit History forum - or any other forum that is more appropriate than User Introductions?

    Steve
     
    Owen likes this.
  7. Matt5100

    Matt5100 Member

    The reason for the beret is below;
    "Hi Matt

    1 SAS always wore a beige beret until it returned to the UK in January 1944. At this stage the beige beret was being phased out for the maroon beret which was what 2 SAS had always worn from the time they were formed in North Africa in early 1943. In April 1944 the SAS became under the command of the AAC and all members of the SAS had to wear a maroon beret. A number of members of the 1 SAS including Paddy Mayne refused to wear a maroon beret and kept wearing their beige ones as long as possible.
    When the SAS was reformed in 1951 the beret colour was maroon. It was only much later that the beige beret became the headdress as it is currently."
     
  8. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi Matt,

    Just looking at your first post again - when you speak of your gf adopting an RAF "identity" whilst initially taken POW to escape execution as SAS and retaining that illusion as he remainned in RAF rather than Army POW Camps.

    However you'll see from the document TD posted that as far as Red Cross were concerned he is correctly recorded as an Army POW?

    Steve
     
  9. Matt5100

    Matt5100 Member

    Thanks for your message.
    I understand that completely. Last year I met his PoW friend, a close friend over 3 of the camps and 3 years. He knew him well and told me this. His name is mentioned in the liberation report and the charge transcript for that drum head trial so their friendship is confirmed. It seems to make sense and sounds about right. But on that, I’m taking his word..
     
  10. Matt5100

    Matt5100 Member

    Hi Steve,
    Another story I heard but did not confirm was that he was captured a number of times and the last time he was captured on purpose to aid with escapes.. so having escaped is a possibility. But as this was just a story and had no evidence, I didn't include it.
    As far as I know he was not in Italy, there is an SAS trooper who's name was O'Brien in Sicily who was involved in an observation op behind enemy lines. But I don't think that is him... I personally think it is another person. But again I don't know.

    I have attached a lot more files to this post, the stalag I charge transcript I found - from a forum - god knows how or why it was there links in perfectly with his liberation report and the "drum head trial" in Stalag I. Unfortunately the forum is no longer supported and the user was a "Guest" so I have no way of contacting whoever posted it. I would love to see the original! And why it was there, it's just weird... it was an absolute impossible stroke of luck coming across that. I think it was a "Brian S." on militarism.com who posted it back in 2006. If you search some of they sentences or names you will find it online.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 13, 2018
  11. Matt5100

    Matt5100 Member

    Thank you for showing me how to upload files. I did notice it doesn't accept OSX powerpoint files, OSX word files and .bmp picture files though.. is this something that can be amended for Apple users?
    Also, i'm a little concerned my files are now randomly scattered throughout the post. Is it possible to bundle them into a folder for easier access to people?

    Many thanks
     
  12. Matt5100

    Matt5100 Member

    I have included a double picture of my grandfather (one up / one down) which is the only one I have of him in uniform. It shows some of the ribbons, have a look for yourself if you think it's the Italian Star.. It's only what others have said... I don't really know... It's hard as this is the clearest picture of it I have
     
  13. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    Thanks for the additional information. I’m familiar with the POW “Long March” routes and the POW evacuation routes across the Mediterranean as my father, a pre war regular soldier, was a POW for 3 1/2 years. He was captured at Antelat, Libya in December 1941 during the Operation Crusader advance. He went from Italy to Greater Germany in Sept 1943 - ending up in Austria and marching out into Czechoslovakia in March 1945 away from the advancing Russian Army.

    I presume the letter to Mr Dalton was for Hugh Dalton MP then Chancellor of the Exchequer?

    Have you noticed mention in the letter about his back pay of his enlistment in Nairobi 31st July 1942? Does that impact on the account of him hitching a lift to Egypt to enlist in SAS?

    Have you received any service papers regarding his time as a private soldier?

    Steve
     
  14. Matt5100

    Matt5100 Member

    Hi Steve,
    How he "enlisted/volunteered" (whatever the accepted term is...?!) and how he got to Cairo, also how he was captured all came from his PoW friend Mr D Fraser, who from memory was in Luft III, VI and I with my grandfather. As I said he was mentioned also in the lib report and the trial in Luft I as attached. Also he is the only person Mr Fraser mentions by name in his memoirs he wrote even before I ever knew or met the guy (also attached). I met him last year when he was 98! He obviously knew my grandfather very well, he knew a lot.
    BUT... whether it is true, partially true or whatever - I really don't know.. But as he told me, he sounded very confident and fluid on it. I cannot say for sure though..
    His time in Kings African Rifles, I received from the KAR curators who said that is what would have happened with him with the dates and regiments he was there and they were very certain of that. But thats it.. I don't have any documents on those things..
    Service History is purely about him seeking pay and his court-martial from KAR. Nothing else was handed over. The people at Glasgow for FOI said to me they have given me everything they had and they went back twice to seek more information. They said they would not withhold any information from me but records were lost in the Blitz and its quite common for people to be disappointed with FOI requests on service history as it was never designed for relatives later to troll through and get a complete picture. It was more administrative documents commonly. But nevertheless thats all I got..
    In documents I have he has been referred to as the following!! Private, 2nd Lt. Sergeant and also an RSM. He has also been in Kenya Regiment, KAR, Welch and SAS.. I have no idea what the welch regiment is about but all PoW docs other than his lib report are him as Welch.. I just don't know.. It's weird!! I have attached to this post a timeline i created, but its not up to date, it's something i created about 9 months ago when i was struggling with things..
    If he was captured in N.Africa like his friend told me, I don't know how he got to Poland..
    This is why I came here as i'm stuck! The curator of the SAS has no documents on him at all.. but he said that's not unusual..
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    I’ve seen mention on the forum of documents being missing from a service file but not to the extent you mention.

    I presume you made your MOD application and paid the £30 fee under this system?

    Get a copy of military service records

    It was just a matter of luck where POW’s were sent on arrival in Germany from Italy. My father ended up working on the railways in Upper Austria while his mate went to Teschen in Silesia and ended up working beside slave labourers at E711 work camp at Heydebreck near Auschwitz.

    Steve
     
  16. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    Sgt Hughes was interviewed by MI9 on 10 September 1945, almost certainly as a result of information he had included on his POW Questionnaire. In the interview he gives no indication of when, how or where he was captured but goes into great detail about the circumstances of his ‘court martial’ and makes it very clear the contempt that he felt for the Senior British officers at the camp.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    OP posted the same documents yesterday as "2 resource documents" so they don't feature in the topic.

    New Resource - ATK O'Brien SAS Liberation Report

    New Resource - ATK O'Brien SAS Liberation Report

    I'm assuming Hughes is a typo as his name is O'Brien.

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
    Matt5100 likes this.
  18. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    Thanks Tullybrone hadn’t seen those and Yes Hughes was a typo - trying to do too many things at once
     
    Tullybrone and Matt5100 like this.
  19. Matt5100

    Matt5100 Member

    Hi Steve,
    Yeah I did it that way.. took a while as they went back twice to look. Anyway thats what they told me.. they didn't seem to think it was that un
    Please read the transcript I have in my bunch of files I found of the Stalag I Charge for the drum head trial, it was an impossibly lucky find on another forum. Last year I spent the day with Mr Fraser mentioned in both documents of the fine age of 98!
     
  20. Matt5100

    Matt5100 Member

    Found The Original document to the book extracts on Stalag Luft III :)
     

    Attached Files:

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