Sergeant George Smith, Drum Major, 1 East Surrey Regiment

Discussion in '1940' started by PGWKATIE, Jun 10, 2014.

  1. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Welcome to the forum double.g. It's always nice to be able to put more detail to these 1940 casualties and also to know that they are not forgotten. The story of George's family brings home the tragedy of two major conflicts in less than thirty years which had so dramatic an effect on so many, especially the children who grew up without a father. Having progressed from a 14 year old bandsman to a Drum Major, he seems to have turned out alright

    Since the posts last year, CWGC have made more available on-line in terms of original paper records.

    [​IMG]

    The record for Kaster Churchyard shows six named East Surrey casualties for 21st May buried in a row...with an 'unknown' between 15 and 17. Bearing in mind that the War Diaries show seven East Surrey fatalities on 21st May and having read numerous accounts of local burials, it seems to me most unlikely that plot 16 could be anyone other than the seventh man - Drum Major George Smith and that sadly the local authorities were unable to make a positive identification, probably later in 1940 once removal from field graves was permitted.

    On this photo from CWGC, plot 16 would appear to be the second from left in the back row.


    [​IMG] :poppy:
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    That church has took a pounding. You can see a repaired hole above the graves and a whole new wall on the right.
     
  3. mannhenry

    mannhenry Junior Member

    I was in this graveyard this morning with a local man and we thought it would be interesting to try to find out who the two unnamed soldiers were. As usual, you’ve come up trumps. Is it possible that the bodies could be DNA tested by the CWGC?
     
  4. PGWKATIE

    PGWKATIE Member

    I am Sgt George Smith's great niece. Having got this far in locating George - and I am extremely grateful to this site for all the help received, as the mystery was solved within hours - I often feel it is such a shame that his name isn't on his gravestone. As you say I can't see how there would be any way of positively identifying him without a DNA test - and in reality would disturbing his body be the best thing to do? Also as you have already said, whether it is likely that the CWGC would offer this is another matter. It's a dilemma though, because from my own perspective I would desperately like visitors to Kaster to know the name of the man who lies there so that he can be properly remembered.
     
  5. mannhenry

    mannhenry Junior Member

    It’s a dilemma for sure. The only consolation is that you know that one of those two graves holds your great uncle and it’s cared for by the people that live there.
     
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  6. PGWKATIE

    PGWKATIE Member

    You are absolutely right. George's grave has been tended to for all these years and will continue to be, so that is something to be extremely grateful for.
     
  7. von Smallhausen

    von Smallhausen Junior Member

    Hello,
    For a memorial project for the Blitz casualties buried in Anzegem communal cemetery I am researching the events of 19-23 rd May 1940. War Diaries and Kriegstachebücher gave me correct info. Now I am researching the casualties focused on the burials of Anzegem. The death certificates and ID docs took me so close to the men, I am looking for a photograph of them now .
    Many years ago when I was doing volunteerswork for IFF Ypres Project Namenlijst I photographed all 14/18 casualties from 1914 till 1926. When I saw other interesting info in the archive of Anzegem, I also took a pic. In this way I photographed the ID docs of the Kaster burials. Most of the men had a fieldgrave and were excavated in 1941 and reburied in Kaster churchyard. The ID docs gives info about the casualty, their appearance, clothes, possessions in their pockets...... and the most terrible things their wounds. In my information I found files of three unknown burials. So dear PGWKatie have you more info about your uncle George? How tall, colour hair, tatoo's.........? If there is a hit I sent you a copy of a the ID Doc, after all you're his family. Don't want to put it here on the forum, sometimes there wounds are terrible. I have too much respect for the servicemen and officers .
    kind regards from Flanders.
    Jef
    By the way if you want to I can take some pics on the places you want....take care stay safe.
     
  8. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Well-Known Member

    Its interesting that the war diary mentions 7 ORs killed on 21st May. The appendix at the back of the diary mentions 10.

    The graves concentration sheet above shows 6 known men of the regiment buried at Kaster/Caster churchyard.

    2 of the men on that graves concentration sheet are not mentioned as killed in action in the appendix of the diary, these are;

    Pte Burckett and Pte Hilton.
    So that makes 12 men killed on 21st May. However CWGC website has Pte Clark as killed on 22nd. So this brings it down to 11 men.

    Most of these men are either registered as buried at either Kaster churchyard or Heverlee.

    But what happened to Cpl Sydney Aldridge 6137378?

    Could he also be buried at Kaster churchyard?
     
  9. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

  10. PGWKATIE

    PGWKATIE Member

    Dear Jef
    Apologies that I did not see or respond to your message - it must have been the distraction of the pandemic. Are you still able/willing to help please? Tony56 has quite out of the blue just told me where I can find George's service records, and I'm assuming height, hair colour and distinguishing features etc should be recorded within those, so I will try and find out more. I only have black and white photos. George was married and might have been carrying a picture of his wife. I also have their wedding photo.
    Best regards
    Katie
     
  11. von Smallhausen

    von Smallhausen Junior Member

    Hello Katie,
    Have been looking to the docs and the first unknown was a sergeant of the Artillerie with blond hair, terrible wounds.....nothing in the pockets anymore.
    The second one had several tattoo's : a spanish lady dancer uderarm, palmtree upper arm and other tattoo's, not much in his pocket. If something is matching i send the doc.
    kind regards
    Jef
     
  12. von Smallhausen

    von Smallhausen Junior Member

    Hello again Katie,
    My friend Adam Petipher remind me the blonde sergeant was later possibly ID by CWGC as Sgt Reaney. But the man with tatoos might be George Frederick Smith or Sydney Aldridge.
    Do you have any photographs of George Frederick Smith ?
    kind regards,
    Jef
     
  13. PGWKATIE

    PGWKATIE Member

    Hi Jef

    I'm afraid I don't know if George had any tattoos. I've looked at the record from when he enlisted as a boy, in 1924, and it says he had a fresh complexion, grey eyes and light brown hair. The only distinguishing feature was a small mole on the back of his right ear. I attach a photo of George, taken on his wedding day. I hope this helps in identifying some of the unnamed burials.

    Best regards
    Katie
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 23, 2022
    A N Dukie, von Smallhausen and CL1 like this.
  14. von Smallhausen

    von Smallhausen Junior Member

    Hello Katie,
    I'm in touch with Adam Petipher and I told him there is an official doc in Kaster about a body and they found a card of Pte Bromwich to a miss Jones. .Strange, there is no grave in Caster about HJ Bromwich. Adam did some research and found out that Horace James Bromwich was married with missJones. Bromwich got killed in an air raid in Bournmouth oktober 1940.
    OK If it was'nt Bromwhich who was found, who was it???? It was a man Ginger hair and 1,67 m tall . Does that match with your uncle George?
     
  15. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Well-Known Member

    Does anybody have a copy of the war diary for May 1940 for 1 East Surreys? It may have the coordinates for the RAP for the regiment.

    While researching my great uncles death I found the coordinates for the RAP for his regiment (77th Field Regiment) in their regimental war diary.

    Jef has a document confirming where the body of the unknown man of grave 16 was found and it would good to see if these match up.
     
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  16. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Well-Known Member

    Hi all,

    I went to the NA today and checked out the war diary for 1 East Surreys but unfortunately there is no reference to, or co-ordinates of the RAP that I could see.
     
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  17. mannhenry

    mannhenry Junior Member

    I was there over the weekend and I’m sure some of the graves are missing. I’m sure there were only four Surrey regiment including the two unknown. The faces of the stones were very degraded and a couple were difficult to read. They were perfect four years ago. I wish I’d taken a photo.
     
  18. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

  19. mannhenry

    mannhenry Junior Member

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