77th Field Regiment Royal Artillery May 1940

Discussion in 'Royal Artillery' started by Adam Petipher, Dec 31, 2019.

  1. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Well-Known Member

    Hi everyone, I am new on here and this is my first post.

    I am trying to find out where my great uncle was killed, to see if I can find a grave.

    His name was Charles Frederick Burns.
    He was in the 77th field regiment ,royal artillery.
    Service number 1507658.
    Killed on 21 May 1940.

    His sister, my grandmother did some research in the past and was told he didn't have a grave and was killed in belgium.
    My nan died in the late 90s.

    Today my dad and I took a trip to the national archives and looked at the war diaries from that period. (WO167/497) Unclassified in 2011 so my nan wouldn't have seen them.

    On the date in the diary it mentions his death.
    The location at that time is "Bergwijk".
    However I cannot find this on any map, so if anyone could shed some light on this I would be very grateful.

    There is a traced part in the diaries which looks like it was traced over a map, it says Sheet 55 and is a sketch showing road blocks. Sheet 55 of gsgs 4040 seems to be near brussels. I have tried to find where this sketch fits on a map but can't find the sheet online. But to me Brussels feels too far into Belgium on this date.

    My second question is which battery was he in?
    I see there was 305 and 306.

    I think it could have been 306 as the entry in the diary mentions RHQ being badly shot up and I think it was linked to 306 reading further into the diaries.

    Thank you in advance for any possible answers. Sorry it was a long one!

    Adam
     
  2. Richard Lewis

    Richard Lewis Member

  3. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Well-Known Member

    Thank you for your reply Richard.

    I think this may be in a different part of Belgium.
    I have been going through the diary pages and other places they are in just before and after his death are;
    19th may- Heestert 9881 (postcode??), and south of Berrwisk/Bergwijk (??) 9988.
    20 + 21st may - Bergwijk. (Day of death).
    Also mentions on another sheet Berchen and Grijkoort.
    22nd may - Ingoyghem. (Present day ingooigem?)

    I have found most of these on a map and they are all generally in the same area, i.e. south west of belgium. I just haven't found the illusive Bergwijk!

    I also note that on the same diary entry on the same day he was killed another colleague from the regiment was also killed.
    He is noted as gunner SJ Wallace no 881929.

    I have found that gunner Wallace does indeed have a grave- at Heverlee War cemetery, Louvain. Which is quite a distance away.
    Unfortunately I cannot see a mention of great uncle charlie there.
     
  4. Richard Lewis

    Richard Lewis Member

    Adam, sorry to send you on a wild goose chase. Ignore my previous post. “Sheet 55” mislead me, what you want is sheet 53. Probably bad handwriting in the war diary.

    France & Belgium 1:50,000, GSGS 4040 Sheet 53 Courtrai (1943)

    Here is part of the map with your placed highlighted.

    Tieghem.jpg

    Here are the grid squares for the places you mention.
    Heestert 9551 (not 9881; another case of bad handwriting?)
    Bergwijk 9955 (not 9988)
    Berchem (not Berchen) 0251
    Grijkoort 0252
    Ingoyghem 9755

    Gnr Wallace SJ has an entry on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission site.
    WALLACE. SAMUEL JOHNSTONE. Gunner. 881929
    If you have a look at the concentration report you will see he was originally buried at Roadside Tieghem Cemetery (grid square 995549)

    BURNS, CHARLES FREDERICK. Gunner 1507658
    He is commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial, which unfortunately means he has no known grave. Either his body was not recovered or he is buried as an unknown soldier.

    Richard
     
    Rothy likes this.
  5. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Well-Known Member

    Wow Richard thats amazing that you found Bergwijk! Thank you very much!!
    Its not even on google maps so maybe the name is different these days?

    I did know about the mention on the dunkirk memorial but thought that the new information I found out at the national archives might point me in the direction of a grave. I think I will go out there anyway and see if I can find any more info.

    Do you know if/where I can find out which battery he was in?

    I would like to upload the photo I took of the map tracing, which shows the road blocks they set up. However it says the file is too large. Any idea how I can upload it?
     
  6. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Well-Known Member

    Heres the photo I took of the traced road block they did on the 20th may.
    It should be somewhere in that area.
    I couldn't find this position on a map unfortunately.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Richard Lewis

    Richard Lewis Member

    Hello Adam,

    That trace has me stumped too. The grid intersection points shown put it on the eastern side of Ypres, nowhere near Bergwijk. Sheet 55 also doesn't make any sense to me.

    As for finding which battery your great uncle was in, the war diaries are probably the best way, but you have already done this. Officers get lots of mentions but other ranks are not often mentioned. Some war diaries have nominal rolls and orders which can mention ORs.

    Richard
     
  8. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    C.F. BURNS on the Dunkirk Memorial.

    upload_2020-1-2_14-45-18.jpeg
     
  9. battleofassche

    battleofassche Well-Known Member

    The tracing coordinates, (if I'm reading them correctly) appear to be from 1:50,000 map Termonde - 44 and west of the Willebroeck Canal. This was the area of withdrawal for 4 ID on May 17-18.
     
    Rothy likes this.
  10. battleofassche

    battleofassche Well-Known Member

  11. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Well-Known Member

    Thank you everyone for all your help, it really is appreciated.

    Today I think I have found out the mystery of the map trace which shows the road blocks!

    Using Bergwijk as the area in the middle of the tracing I found a shape that fits.

    Coordinates and sheet number must refer to an earlier set of maps as the one I used is issue 4 which says 1943, but the map traced would have been no later than 1940.

    I've tried to upload the shape I've drawn on the map but unfortunately it is bigger than 2MB and it wont allow me to upload it.

    The top of the traced area appears to be a roadblock to a road leading to a bridge over a railway line to the west of langestraat railway station. The bridge is next to the name Bergstraat.
     
  12. Richard Lewis

    Richard Lewis Member

    It looks as if the was a Nominal Roll. This is probably a page from it here:

     
  13. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Well-Known Member

    Thank you very much!

    Most of the mysteries are now solved!
    The icing on the cake would be finding a grave if he has one. I'd like to go out there with my dad on the 80th anniversary of uncle charlies death to pay our respects.
    I'm planning on going out there before this date to see if I can find one or any info leading to one. Wish me luck!

    Thank you for everybodies help on this- you have all been amazing!
     
  14. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Well-Known Member

    Most clues seem to point to him not having a grave.
    I wonder if anybody on this forum has a relative or knows somebody who was in this regiment in may 1940 and perhaps remembers my uncles death and perhaps might know why he doesn't have a grave?

    I see that other colleagues of his that died on the same day such as sj wallace have a grave, so I wonder why my uncle does not.

    Was he so badly shot up for example was there nothing left to bury? Or perhaps they had to retreat so fast under heavy shelling that they were unable take his body?

    Any information would be greatly received.
    Thank you all.
     
  15. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Well-Known Member

    Hi, jusy to update you all, I think I have narrowed down 2 graves of unknown soldiers as potentially being my great uncle charlie burns.

    Gunner Wallace SJ was killed on the same date and place as my uncle.
    Looking at the concentration sheet for Wallace it shows he was initially buried at the roadside at Tieghem along with a group of other men. This is over 2 different sheets.
    There are 2 unknown graves at this roadside burial and I feel there is a high chance that one of them is charlie.

    Does anyone know if there is anyway of identification of these graves? For example DNA testing perhaps?

    Thank you all for your help and assistance in this.
     
  16. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    Hi

    The first unknown has a death date of 14/05/40 (do = same as the value above) which is different to that of your great uncle.

    As far as the second unknown grave, the only thing you can really take from this is he was buried sometime between 14 and 31 May 1940.

    You could ask the CWGC and ask it there was any other information regarding the unknown graves.

    Gus
     
  17. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    From Casualty List No 24 published in Birmingham Daily Post 16 July 1940.

    upload_2020-1-9_12-53-13.png
     
  18. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Well-Known Member

    Hi Gus, thanks for the reply.
    I have found 2 separate sheets with roadside burials at Tieghem.
    The second sheet has the first soldier as Badger H.

    I tried to upload them but they were too big.

    There is an unknown soldier on each sheet, coincidentally both numbered 6.
    Date of deaths are both unknown.
    These are the graves I have in mind.

    I note that in the war diaries together with the death of my great uncle is an NCO and I wonder if that is the other unknown soldier.

    Thanks for the newspaper clipping, very interesting!
     
  19. von Smallhausen

    von Smallhausen Junior Member

    Hello Adam,
    I live quite close to Tiegem-Ingooigem. If you want me to take some pics let me know where on map. As soon the lockdown has ended I will make some for you.
    Stay safe.
    Jef
     
  20. Adam Petipher

    Adam Petipher Well-Known Member

    Hello Von Smallhausen,
    Thank you for your offer, its very kind.
    If I can find the position of the roadside burial a photo of that could be interesting.
     

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