Yes really - it's logic. If a new camo scheme was applied to the tanks it would cover up any large numbers already on them so whoever then applied the new numbers was not doing it as part of the original Tobruk scheme
Then this is of the 3RTR system This closeup of DEFIANCE shows a partially obscured triangle and inside something that could possibly a "4". Then the numbers are in fact troop identifiers as Mark suggested
Only works if inside a squadron identifier. I would still suggest that the single large number was akin to an individual tank identifier as in WW1 with the crew number. 4RTR only had a limited number of tanks in Tobruk. When they finally handed over they only had four left
Oh, really? The Tank Brigade (32nd Army TB) had the following tanks: 4th Battalion Royal Tanks - "A" Squadron 16 "I" Tanks and 1 Light; "B" Squadron 16 "I" Tanks and 1 Light; C Squadron 15 "I" Tanks and 1 Light; BHQ Squadron 4 "I" Tanks and 3 Light. THE SECOND BATTALION THE BLACK WATCH AT TOBRUK 32nd Army Tank Brigade: Brigadier A.C. Willison Headquarters (a few cruiser and light tanks) 1st Bn, The Royal Tank Regiment (3 squadrons with 28 Cr. Mk.I, II and IVA, and 21 Lt. Mk. VIB tanks) 4th Bn, The Royal Tank Regiment (3 squadrons with 50 Inf. Mk. II Matilda and a few Lt. Mk. VIB tanks) D Squadron 7th Bn, The Royal Tank Regiment (19 Inf. Mk. II Matilda and a few Lt. Mk. VIB tanks) C Squadron 1st King's Dragoon Guards (Marmon-Harrington armoured cars) (AH & T report 32 cruiser and 69 "I" tanks, with 25 lights-a total of 126 in the brigade).[/QUOTE] Crusader OOB - Page 5 - Axis History Forum But what do I know...
Really? 4RTR WD entry for 21 November 1941 states A Sqn held 16 Infantry an 1 Light tank B Sqn held 16 Infantry an 1 Light tank C Sqn held 15 Infantry an 1 Light tank Battalion HQ held 4 Infantry an 3 Light tank That exactly 1 Infantry and 1 Light tank short of establishment. Limited?
When they were relieved they only had four tanks to hand over so that at some point limited is exactly right
Oh l see! You didn't mean in Tobruk you meant outside Tobruk after they had fought their way out. Losing tanks to enemy action was quite common and so yes, after several pretty ferocious engagements, the number of fit tanks steadily declined. I guess, by a similar logic, you also consider the personnel was limited since the battalion had lost 78 personnel. You also didn't really mean 4 either, as the unit held 12 on handover and also had another unspecified number in Tobruk AOW being worked on. But hey ho!
Not quite. That picture is one of the cavalry regiments. Don't ask me which one as I haven't a clue. But you can tell it's cavalry not RTR because they repeat the 1-4 troop number for each squadron whereas RTR went up to 12 or 15 depending on role. Example of 12 Troop, C Sqn, 3RTR in Calais 1940 https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-...i-cruiser-mk-iv-a13-mk-ii/A13_Calais_1940.jpg
Adding to my last. There are always exceptions to the rule. 7RTR, for example, had no C Sqn but a D Sqn. Moreover, the five troops of D/7RTR were numbered 1-5 (not 11-15 or 16-20). On 21 November 1941, they started the breakout with 17 Infantry and 2 Light tanks. That's one of each over establishment.
Another (sad) example of "large numbers" unit and date unknown whereas this one seems numbered as part of "body count" at Bir Hacheim? "9" from the same sequence 4:33min
Matilda II "GRUMBLE (II)", 7 RTR, Fort Capuzzo, 15 June ´41 seemingly the numbering served as marker for damaged enemy tanks until I stumbled across this picture: same tank but obviously in a very early state of destruction (turret not dislocated). IMHO quite unusual: the number "38" already applied despite the tank is still burning.... number is rather high for troop markings and7 RTR lost 14 tanks altogether that day at Capuzzo. Someone who knows of further losses from other units?
At the end of Op Battleaxe, 4RTR left 37 I Tanks on the battlefield, 7RTR left 33. Not all around Capuzzo though. But a significant number were.
Panzer-Regiment 8 claimed 27 tanks between 15./16.6.41 at Capuzzo 7 Matildas were recovered and integrated in 1. Abteilung No. "38" under fire. Crew got out alive and was taken prisoner. source: HELMUTH ORSCHIEDT`S WAR IN AFRICA ~ The Deutsches Afrikakorps Online Archive
You are presuming that the tank is burning from being hit, and not from a PR Kompanie man pouring some petrol over it and putting a lighter on. Happened a bit. There is a great picture of two Matilda IIs at Arras. All the best Andreas
After all, tanks burned more often from shelling than from PK personnel. And the turret was certainly lifted off by an internal explosion, which means some gasoline would have been poured into the wreckage as well. IMHO a bit much effort, especially since fuel was a scarce commodity - unlike British tank wrecks. Going by Ockham's Razor, immediate combat effect seems simply more obvious to me Otherwise my assumption is as good or bad as any other, as long as I can't show any evidence BTW: the same tank in frontal view
I'm not a fire grog, but that looks like a gasoline fire on the top of the turret to me. It's an unusual location for a fuel tank. I'm not aware of many immediate combat pictures from the desert showing a burning tank. So this would be an unusual picture. Having said that, it's all idle speculation anyway. Just a note also that if the number 38 were a unit marking, then it's 1) the first time I have seen one like it, as it is different from troop markings, and 2) makes little sense, since 7 RTR's tank no. 38 would have been in Tobruk at the time, with D Squadron. All the best Andreas
I don't find the theory with the laid "propaganda fire" far-fetched - after all, it would perfectly explain the unusual identification "38" as counter for destroyed tanks... However, our hypothetical PK man probably meant it a bit too well, because the fire seems to have caused the internal explosion in any case.
Do we have any idea what colour the triangle marking would have been for Defiance, presumably out of the more obvious contenders - red, yellow or blue?
I have no idea which were the senior, second or junior regiments within the brigade. Assuming that blue means the junior of the 3 armoured regiments represented as battalions within 32nd tank brigade (red for senior, yellow for 2nd, green lastly for motor unit), and that the triangle shape refers to Troop A of that formation.
Well it was 1st, 4th and 7th RTR. As 1 RTR could trace back to A Coy MG Corps, 4 RTR to D Battalion and 7 RTR to G Battalion MG Corps, I suppose 7 RTR were the junior regiment in 32 ATB. All the best Andreas