Battlegroup Fehrmann Tiger v. three British Comets, 3RTR

Thanks for the info, just a quick question..is T-335947 a typo?

 

I'm currently comparing the 11 'known' photos of Tiger F01 and it's clear that some of the chaps appear on more than one photo and, thanks to various sources, some are named. There seems to be a significant HQ Squadron and B Squadron input - guess A and C Squadrons were 'otherwise engaged' which,in itself, could provide clues as to exactly when the various photos were taken. The weather on the two key days was apparently hot and sunny so even shadows could give clues as to the precise time order the photos were taken

 

It could have been about midday 13th, C Squadron continued advance and A Squadron were mopping up with KSLI, B Squadron remained at Schwarmstedt, or perhaps afternoon, when A Squadron got bogged down...or maybe on the 14th, morning, while A Squadron tanks were being recovered, C Squadron sent out 2 troops to cover woods. On the 15th, they passed Belsen but B Squadron returned to Bergen, although HQ went ahead with rest of Regiment.
Plus, is it my imagination, or is there someone behind the tank trying to surrender? "Entschuldigen, bitte... when you haf finished looking at mein tank, can you please come and capture me?"
Actually, looking at that photo, it looks overcast-according to the WD appendix A attached (courtesy of 11th Armoured Div facebook), the 13th & 14th, were 'fine', the 15th 'dull'.

 

The consensus is that there is a chap surrendering and the 'haze' is actually smoke coming out of the cupola - F01 partially 'brewed' after being hit by Sgt Hardings tank on the 13th and the two chaps at the front of the tank are having a tankie/infantry chat on the side away from the enemy albeit the two chaps standing at the side of the road appear somewhat nonplus. You appear correct about photos taken about mid day - look at the shadows.

 

I would agree, but there is a certain amount of reasoned guesswork in this. My understanding is that three Tigers took part in the fighting on the Ostenholz road, of which one was for certain F01. I believe that a second Tiger was quite possibly the one which reportedly broke down with gearbox problems at Rethem en route with KG Schulze to Forst Schaumburg but once repaired joined Gruppe Grosan on the Ostenholz road. My reasoning for this is that no Tigers were subsequently reported by 53rd Welsh Division units when they were fighting for the town and subsequent bridgehead. The third Tiger deployed from Bergen with the remainder of Gruppe Grosan. My suspicion was that this tank did not join KG Schulze as it was not combat ready when the KG deployed. All this, plus more detail and reasoning, is in my delayed book!

Zoot suits - see the photo at #283 and the crewman is clearly wearing his.

 

According to the owner of this photo - Fred Preston - the tankie chap is Mitford (CO 3RTks at that time). Does that make sense or is Fred conflating? The chaps are clearly in deep discussion.

 

I think that is entirely plausible and it could well be Mitford discussing the next phase of the battle with CO 4KSLI (name escapes me).

 

Lt Col Max Robinson

 

Doh! I should have made that the caption to the photo, which features in my book.

 

Very sorry, yes typo - T-334947...

 

Yep seeeeeen but go back a tad further and there is a pic of the same Tiger with a large gathering and again they again are just in BD!

 

Think I've nailed it. The photo with the two chaps stood at the front of the Tiger having a 'serious chat' (Fred Prestons photo) are 'at work'. That also happens to likely be the first or second photo taken in the 'series' of what is now a total of eleven. The other photo candidate for first or second photo is the one where F01 is on the road and being passed by a Cromwell (NB: that's a tank that looks like a Comet without return track rollers ). The rest of the photos feature 3RTR 'tourists' who are consequently wearing their 'going out' clothes.

 

Reckon that’s about right Steve.

The Cromwell belongs to HQ 29 Armd Bde and could be taking Brig Roscoe Harvey forward to get a feel for the battle. I say this because, as you identify, the photo is early in the F01 chronology and thus taken at a time when fighting was still raging, either in the forest or in the wood about a mile from the forest’s edge.

 

This pic has caused some serious debate as you well know! As I've said before when have you seen a right hand turret bin on a Comet and if I'm not mistaken you can make out the AOS no 50 on the back of the hull! I like your style LOL!

 

Not sure if this is exactly the right thread, and maybe not new to you, but I thought this might be of interest to some of you...

OPERATION EPSOM - SCENES ON THE EVE OF BATTLE (PART 3) [Allocated Title]

 

Hello there. I wonder if you could settle something for me. I have had a discussion with someone who asserts that Langdon's Comet should have been able to take on successfully Tiger F01 at the relatively close range of 300yd, even though it was head on. I consider that the best person to know was Langdon himself! Any thoughts? Thank you.

 

Welcome

The trouble is he didn't

 

Well, in his book he said they got a shot off but that they couldn't hope to knock it out head on. The person I was in discussion with was strongly of the opinion that with the "77mm" (76.2 / 17lb) gun they had they should have been able to penetrate the frontal armour.

 

Whats your opinion - have you checked the thickness of the frontal armour and the penetrating possibilities of the shell ?

TD

 

Sorry for my reply but this becomes a what if.

I am sure the person you are in discussion with possibly has access to the same tools we do
A bit of info here which I googled

No trials of maximum penetration were made. Penetration was only tested against multiple plates positioned at a straight angle and at 30 degrees. A 100 mm thick plate could be penetrated from 1800 meters when flat, and from a kilometer when angled. A 90 mm thick plate could be penetrated from 2 kilometers, or from 1200 meters at 30 degrees. A 76 mm thick plate could be penetrated from 2200 m. This was higher than the 85 mm S-53 gun, and about the same as the BS-3 with BR-412 ammunition. The German 8.8 cm Pak 43/41 had better penetration, but it was much larger and almost twice as heavy.Tank Archives: 17-Pounder: Britain's Long Arm