1st Army Tank Brigade

Discussion in 'Higher Formations' started by DavidW, Aug 31, 2012.

  1. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Did 42 R/T/R convert from Matildas to Valentines at the same time as 44 R/T/R?
    I have the latter changing around Spring 1942.
     
  2. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    The 42nd RTR never converted to Valentines. Some troops served with Scorpions for a while at Alamein before it became a CDL unit in Palestine. See below:

    32nd Army Tank Brigade – 6 June 1942 to 20 June 1942
    The battalion was amalgamated with 7th Royal Tank Regiment on June 6th in Libya under the 32nd Army Tank Brigade as the 7th/42nd Royal Tank Regiment with the remaining Matildas of the two regiments.

    8th Army – 20 June 1942 to 27 June 1942
    On June 20th, 1942, the 42nd handed over any remaining tanks to the 4th and 7th Royal Tank Regiments in Tobruk and it returned to Sidi Bishr, Egypt on June 28th.

    1st Army Tank Brigade – 27 June 1942 to 22 April 1944
    The battalion rejoined 1st Army Tank Brigade at Sidi Bishr on June 27th, 1942. It was without tanks except for some detachments. A detachment of seven Matildas fought under the 18th Indian Infantry Brigade at Dier el Shein on July 1st, 1942 and another detachment fought under the 1st South African Division for a while from July 8th, 1942 before returning to Khataba in August 1942. It employed two troops of three Scorpions at El Alamein.
    The battalion left Egypt on October 24th, 1942 and moved to Rafah in Palestine. It then trained there for one year on Matilda Canal Defence Light Tanks (CDLs). It left Palestine on January 31st, 1944 and moved to Mena in Egypt, where it received Grant CDL tanks. It left Egypt by sea on April 6th, 1944 and arrived back at Gourock, Scotland on April 22nd, 1944.
     
  3. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Thanks David.

    So did they get any tanks inbetween their initial allocation of Matildas and the date of 6th June 1942 (above)?
     
  4. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    David

    They must have, given the very considerable losses they suffered in the opening stages of CRUSADER. They had only 5 tanks remaining out of 2 squadrons and HQ 42 RTR, and one Squadron 44 RTR, and many of the repairable tanks were then further damaged/destroyed in the battle at the 1 Army Tank Brigade's workshop:

    The Battle for 1 Army Tank Brigade’s Repair Shop « The Crusader Project

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  5. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Thanks Andreas.

    I'm still looking for how many & when.
     
  6. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    Here is all I have before that date:


    1st Army Tank Brigade – 11 November 1941 to 11 December 1941
    It rejoined 1st Army Tank Brigade in Libya on November 11th, 1941. By November 19th, 1941 only ‘C’ Squadron had 16 Matilda IIs and one Vickers Mk VIB Light Tank. The battalion had its full complement of 48 Matildas a few days later.

    4th Indian Infantry Division – 11 December 1941 to 27 December 1941
    The battalion was detached to the 4th Indian Infantry Division for operations in Libya from December 11th to 27th.

    1st Army Tank Brigade – 28 December 1941 to 6 June 1942
    It rejoined the brigade in Libya on December 28th. At the start of the Gazala battles on May 26th, 1942 one squadron was under the command of the 1st Army Tank Brigade, part of the battalion under the 32nd Army Tank Brigade, and on May 31st, 1942, ‘B’ Squadron was under the 150th Infantry Brigade Group. The battalion was sent to the 32nd Army Tank Brigade on June 5th, 1942.
     
  7. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Here is all I have before that date:


    1st Army Tank Brigade – 11 November 1941 to 11 December 1941
    It rejoined 1st Army Tank Brigade in Libya on November 11th, 1941. By November 19th, 1941 only ‘C’ Squadron had 16 Matilda IIs and one Vickers Mk VIB Light Tank. The battalion had its full complement of 48 Matildas a few days later.

    That's not correct I'm afraid. A & B Squadrons definitely had their tanks by 11 November when they joined 1 Army Tank Brigade. C Squadron then may have received theirs on 19 November, but in any case did not join the Brigade until 25 November.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  8. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    I am hoping to find replacement tanks recieved between January & April 1942.
    (Assuming there were some of course).
     
  9. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    David - the only thing I could suggest are the WDs of the regiment for that period, but I don't have those. I am not sure when I get to Kew next, but will try to remember and look it up when I do.

    One other thing on subordination of 42 R.T.R. - when 1 Army Tank Brigade moved west towards Tobruk (around 26/27 November?) what remained of the regiment was left behind, and came under command of 2 S.A. Division until 11 December.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  10. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Okay, found their WD for December now, which was on a different computer. Thanks to Tom for sharing that.

    Tanks
    Unhelpfully, there is not much info on this. At the end of November they formed a composite squadron "D" from A, B, and 44 R.T.R. personnel (in the end this was manned completely by 44 R.T.R personnel). This probably received new tanks from T.D.S.. C Squadron continued, since they were not involved in the original desaster at Sidi Omar. Another composite squadron "E" was then formed and also took over tanks at the T.D.S.

    By 18 December they report 35 tanks in the battalion, and on 19 December 37 tanks fit.

    It had lost 22 tanks 'put out of action' at Sidi Omar, another one during the dash to the wire, an unspecified number of tanks at the L.R.S., and whatever C Squadron had lost.

    Attachments
    They came under 2 S.A. Division on 4 December. On 10 December they came under 32 Army Tank Brigade. On 17 December under 4 Indian Division. On 21 December they move back under 1 Army Tank Brigade. C Squadron was under the C.I.H. for most of November while in action, then under 44 R.T.R.

    On the whole very chaotic.

    Hope this helps.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  11. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    Andreas:

    Thanks for the corrections and additions. I have added them to my notes for the 42nd RTR.
     
  12. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Anytime!

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  13. Barb20

    Barb20 Member

    I am sorry if I have posted this in the wrong place. Can't get the hang of where I should be posting at any one time!

    My uncle was with HQ 1 ATB from 11.9.42 - November 1944.

    After training in Rafah, Palestine he embarked UK on 6.4.44 and disembarked UK on 22.4.44, which ties in with your info. However, I am unable to find where he went from there until he embarked for NWE on the 10.8.44. I believe he was with either the 4th or 7th RTR.

    I am assuming he was in further training in UK between April and August 1944. Can anyone help me to place him?

    Many thanks.

    Barb
     
  14. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    The 1st Tank Brigade was located at Lowther Camp in Cumberland while in the UK from April to August 1944. If he was still with HQ 1st Tank Brigade, that is where he would be located.
     
  15. Barb20

    Barb20 Member

    Thanks for that Dryan.

    Is 1st ATB same as HQ 1st ATB? Very confused as his records show he is with HQ `1 ATB on 16.9.43. Then embarked with 1 ATB on 5.4.44 arriving 22.4.44. Then no record until he embarked NWE on 10.8.44 arriving 12.8.44 with 1ATB. Then no record until 15.11.44 when he was Posted X/4 List 2 ARU.

    Would he have been with 1 ATB in Lowther Camp from April - Aug 44?

    Many thanks
     
  16. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    HQ is the headquarters of the brigade. It basically defines here the brigade was located. It left the UK on Aug 9 1944 and arrived in France the following day. It probably deployed in an embarkation camp on the south coast for a few days before landing.
     
  17. Barb20

    Barb20 Member

    Can anyone confirm what regiments made up the 1 Army Tank Brigade when they embarked for NWE on 10.8.44

    Thanks

    Barb
     
  18. Barb20

    Barb20 Member

    Hello again
    I am trying to avoid having to obtain the War Diary for the above as I am only looking to find out where they disembarked in France in August 1944 and where they were from 12.8.44 - 15.11.44. I am therefore hoping that someone will have the War Diary covering this period and would kindly do a "look up" for me.

    Also trying to find out what Regiments would have made up the 1 Army Tank Brigade at this time.

    Can anyone assist.

    Barb
     
  19. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

  20. Barb20

    Barb20 Member

    Thanks for that Andreas. I will investigate. Regards Barb
     

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