Hi Everyone, Still researching my uncles war service and have come across an entry in his records which says ' Attd, HQ, 2nd Army Def. Pl.' which I believe stands for Attached to HQ 2nd Army Defence Platoon which was drawn from the 50th Northumbrian Division and in Jim's case the 5th East Yorks . The date is 4th July 1944 and I know that it was General Miles Dempsey's HQ which I think was at Cruelly. Does anyone know if War Diaries or records were produced by HQ or the Platoons? I have searched National Archives to no avail. Thanks, Graham
Graham The only fitting war establishment I found was III/131/2 "An Army or Corps Headquarters Defence Company" which of course had several platoons. So you might find the war diaries by searching for an Army Headquarters Defence Company. Aixman
Thanks Aixman, Initial search gave lists of awards to servicemen. I will keep trying with different permutations. Thanks again, Graham
No can't find anything under that heading. Are the first three digits '1's or 'L's lower case? Regards Graham
Graham, This is what Aixman was referring to. ARMY HEADQUARTERS DEFENCE COMPANY War Establishment III/131/2. The Major commanding the Defence Company may also deploy headquarters personnel for defence if required. Motorcycle 1 Company Serjeant Major Motorcycle 2 transport serjeant Motorcycle 3 orderly Motorcycle 4 orderly Car 5cwt 4 X 4 (jeep) Major, batman driver Carries a Bren lmg 15cwt GS 1 Captain, clerk, batman driver Carries office equipment 15cwt GS 2 storeman technical, vehicle mechanic REME, driver mechanic Carries MT stores and ammunition 3ton 4 X 4 GS lorry 1 corporal cook, 3 X cook, sanitary dutyman, driver IC Carries cooking sets and rations. Carries water in tins Tows a water trailer 3ton 4 X 4 GS lorry 2 company quartermaster serjeant, storeman, driver IC Carries stores 3ton 4 X 4 GS lorry 3 corporal armourer REME, 2 X vehicle mechanic REME, driver mechanic Carries 20mm ammunition and spares 20mm AA Platoon Motorcycle 1 Subaltern Motorcycle 2 orderly Motorcycle 3 orderly 15cwt GS serjeant, batman driver Carries office equipment 15cwt AA 1 serjeant, 2 X gun numbers, driver IC Carries 20mm AA gun Carries a Bren lmg Tows a trailer containing 20mm ammunition 15cwt AA 2 serjeant, 2 X gun numbers, driver IC Carries 20mm AA gun Carries a Bren lmg Tows a trailer containing 20mm ammunition 15cwt AA 3 serjeant, 2 X gun numbers, driver IC Carries 20mm AA gun Carries a Bren lmg Tows a trailer containing 20mm ammunition 15cwt AA 4 serjeant, 2 X gun numbers, driver IC Carries 20mm AA gun Carries a Bren lmg Tows a trailer containing 20mm ammunition 20mm AA Platoon Motorcycle 1 Subaltern Motorcycle 2 orderly Motorcycle 3 orderly 15cwt GS serjeant, batman driver Carries office equipment 15cwt AA 1 serjeant, 2 X gun numbers, driver IC Carries 20mm AA gun Carries a Bren lmg Tows a trailer containing 20mm ammunition 15cwt AA 2 serjeant, 2 X gun numbers, driver IC Carries 20mm AA gun Carries a Bren lmg Tows a trailer containing 20mm ammunition 15cwt AA 3 serjeant, 2 X gun numbers, driver IC Carries 20mm AA gun Carries a Bren lmg Tows a trailer containing 20mm ammunition 15cwt AA 4 serjeant, 2 X gun numbers, driver IC Carries 20mm AA gun Carries a Bren lmg Tows a trailer containing 20mm ammunition Ground Defence Platoon Motorcycle Orderly 15cwt GS Subaltern, driver IC Carries baggage and stores 3ton 4 X 4 troop carrying lorry serjeant, 3 X corporal, 21 X riflemen, driver IC Carries 3 X Bren lmg and 3 X PIAT Forms three sections, each with eight men including a corporal plus a Bren gun. PIATS are available for distribution as required. Ground Defence Platoon Motorcycle orderly 15cwt GS Subaltern, driver IC Carries baggage and stores 3ton 4 X 4 troop carrying lorry serjeant, 3 X corporal, 21 X riflemen, driver IC Carries 3 X Bren lmg and 3 X PIAT Forms three sections, each with eight men including a corporal plus a Bren gun. PIATS are available for distribution as required. Armoured Car Troop RAC Armoured Car 1 Subaltern, gunner mechanic, gunner operator, driver operator, driver mechanic Armoured Car 2 serjeant, gunner mechanic, gunner operator, driver operator, driver mechanic Armoured Car 3 corporal driver operator, 2 X gunner mechanic, gunner operator, driver mechanic Mike
And yes 2 Army Headquarters was at Creully. Must have been a bit crowded. The town was chosen by General Dempsey for his 2 Army Main Headquarters, with his Tactical Headquarters moving to wherever was nearest the fighting. General Montgomery also established his 21 Army Group Main Headquarters here. With these two major headquarters came their associated RAF Headquarters. 2 TAF Headquarters was located near 21 Army Group Headquarters and 83 Group Headquarters near 2 Army Headquarters. Mike.
Thanks Mike, Is there diaries for the HQ platoons? I would like to know the HQ locations and the daily routines and actions if possible for the duration of overlord. Graham
Hi Mike, I have beenon thr Trux site and seen the War Establishment table references WO 24 948 July, August, September WO 24 949 October, November, December Do youknow What they show? Graham
All I could find was this diary: WO 171/15 2 Army HQ Defence Company 1944 July- Dec No idea on content or how many pages - I never knew they existed until tonight
I have never seen a War Diary for a HQ Defence unit. If it has appendices it could be very interesting. Anyway it will list all the sites it occupied. The War Diaries for major Headquarters are big and deal with much weightier matters that defence units. Mike
Hi Andy hope you are well have not been around for a while due to other things. Thats very interesting set of documents 151 july to september looks good too, I will try to find out how many sheets there are but it looks thick to me! Just wonder if it will cover 2nd army diaries within 21st army group it may do. Thanks again, Graham
There's a separate diary for 2 Army HQ Hi Andy Thought there might be, have you the reference by chance? Thanks Graham
It's not the defence platoon file, it will be a General Staff file - It will be around a 1,000 pages and most of them will be admin related pages like Operational Orders etc.
Hi Andy hope you are well. Still trying to find war diaries for the above. The reference you gave me I misinterpreted for WO 171/52 Army HQ Defence Company when I now realise it should have been WO 171/15 2 Army HQ etc. Anyway found it today but it says on the TNA reference that its July to December 1943 and not 1944. Do you know if this incorrect? I didnt think they were in France then. I really need to find where the Tactical HQ moved to and what they were involved in. Hope you can help,
WO 171 is the NW Europe campaign files and like you say there were no allies in France etc until D-Day so I suspect/ very confident the year is a typo. Starting in July would fit in with the HQ deploying to France after Normandy beaches were secure etc. Cheers Andy
Thanks very much Andy I do appreciate your help. As you say they couldn't have been there in 43 as they didn't get there until post D-Day so must be typo. That's another trip to the TNA maybe next week. Regards, Graham
Checked out the file WO 171/15 at the TNA and it is defintely 1943. It covers the period in England, Oxford and later at Purbrook near Portsmouth before DDay. Graham