RAC gunnery meaning 'Rypas'

Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by Topfmine, Nov 17, 2019.

  1. Topfmine

    Topfmine Active Member

    Anyone know what the term Rypa means in WW2 gunnery practice something to do with gun training but cant work it out.
     
  2. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Roll, Yaw, Pitch and Alter Course

    It's to do with training tank gunners. Some armies had turret simulators that could mimic the motion of a tank.
     
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  3. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Although used in tank gunnery the abbreviation comes from naval training when navy gunners had to allow for ships motion.
     
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  4. Topfmine

    Topfmine Active Member

    Thanks for solving my question, i would have never have know this. The manual or training pamphlet refers to the enemy tank as a hornet did they use other terms and do they refer to the term today.
     
  5. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

  6. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    The only connection between tanks and hornet I know of is the Medium C Hornet of 1918. Said to be the best British tank design of WW1 only just under 50 had been completed when the war ended. It was replaced in first line service in 1923 but used for training for some time. Mosquito Tanks used to be a generic term for light tanks - perhaps Hornet was used for mediums. Can you provide thetext in which the term occurs to show the context?
     
  7. Topfmine

    Topfmine Active Member

    The term hornet is referred in the RAC weapons training pamphlet No,34 part 6 royal armoured corps practices 1942 show various chapters such as pellet ranges, open ranges 30 yard ranges, 75mm 2 pounder practices. etc plus there are 9 other detailed chapters parts to the weapons training series. The term hornet refers to enemy tanks in some of the commands carried out under instructors notes and methods of procedure. So a command 'hornet 800 yards left of church' or hornet 1000 yards ahead. Of the many diagrams shown is target layouts showing various obstacles as targets, a small picture of a tank marked hornet. I will try and get a photo copy of the pages.
     
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  8. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

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  9. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    A "hornet" was a type of target used on a "battle practice" AFV range, e.g. like the one at Linney Head. Some targets were stationary, some targets flipped up, and some moved on pulleys. All of these had different names, and I can't remember off hand which one was the hornet. On a battle practice range the tanks would move round a set course, and the various targets would appear in a randomised sequence, in order to surprise the crews.

    A bit like the clip below, but with tanks:

     
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  10. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    The Hornets were towed on cables
    "During WW2, the Langsett area was used as a training area in preparation for the 1944 Normandy landings. In addition to a training range for tanks, armoured cars and artillery guns, it was also a test range for experimental shells. The brick outlines are the remnants of winch houses which were used to move targets across the shooting ranges. The targets, known as hornets, resembled tanks and were made from wood and canvas."
    So not a generic name for enemy tanks.

    I have a photo of a similar arrangement used by the Germans for training anti tank artillery 1917 -18 although what they called the targets is anyone's guess.
     
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  11. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    I've really no idea but from a list, albeit US, of acronyms and codewords:
    Hornets
    88-mm. self-propelled antitank guns

    Apparently taken from the original name for the German Nashorn. It may be this is how the targets were called 'Hornets'.

    Tim
     
  12. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Doubt it. The name appears to be applied only to mobile targets. It wasn't used for pop up targets.

    See
    MSO8096 - Target railway C on Bossington Hill (Monument)
    The site is a moving target rail, which was used to operate targets propelled by small rail cars known as Wickham trolleys. These carried a target, in the shape of a tank target (known as a Hornet by British AFV crews) made from dark hessian stretched over a wooden frame. It seems that at the northern end of the track there was a rail loop which allowed the trolley to return to the southern end of the track. Switches along the track controlled the braking and speed/direction of the trolley by engaging various levers and switches on the trolley chassis. The southern end of the track would have had a large dugout for the storage of targets and the target trolley/s. They were manoeuvred into the shelter with the aid of the turntable manufactured by Robert Hudson Ltd, well known manufacturers of engines and ancilliary equipment. Initially 6 Wickham trolleys were provided for Minehead, probabaly two for each of the moving target rails. The trolleys were often derailed by stones and earth flung onto the track by shells hitting the protective bank to the south of the track. The concrete shelter at the northern end of the track was used to house men who would have observed and repaired the target as necessary. They may also have operated other fixed/disappearing targets near the dugout.


    In the 1930 US and British remotely controlled target aircraft were known as drones and the drone developed by De Haviland and used in some numbers by the RN and RAN for AA practice was called the Queen Bee.Sometimes painted in yellow and black stripes, Possibly a target in dark colours would be natural to nickname hornet.
     
  13. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

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  14. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    [​IMG]
    There were several different military designations for this vehicle, such as: Sfl. auf PzKpfw. III/IV Fahrgestell Hornisse mitt 8.8 cm PaK 43 from January 1943, Panzerjager III/IV “Hornisse” für 8.8 cm PaK 43/1 (Sd.Kfz.164) from August 1943, 8.8 cm PaK 43/1 Sfl. “Nashorn” from September 1944 and 8.8 cm PaK 43/1 auf Fgst.Pz.Kpfw.III und IV (Sf) Sd.Kfz. 164.

    Early on, it was also simply known as the Hornisse (Hornet). In late 1943, Hitler ordered to change the nickname to Nashorn (Rhinoceros). For the sake of simplicity, this article will use the Nashorn name.
    Ref: http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2

    Although I think the target name probably comes from the British Hornet as given by Robert in #6.

    Tim
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  15. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    the rail ranges using hornets were in use before this was a factor.
     
  16. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    The 2nd Irish Guards' war diary for March 1942 documents a visit to Linney Head during which they fired 2 pounders at moving "hornets", so the targets predate the German SPG's. The other target types they mention are "men", "maggies", "transport" and "ants", which were all engaged with by the Besa.

    One of the interesting things about Linney Head is that seemingly every regiment that gave a detailed record of their stay there (which usually lasted at least a week) claimed that they achieved by far the highest collective score ever recorded, which suggests that the range operators liked to ensure that everyone left with a morale boost.
     
  17. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    There is a logic. The pre-war RAC believed in firing on the move. Tanks were originally developed by the Admiralty, who also trained naval gunners to fire at moving targets on the move. My guess is that the RYPA trainer would be just as useful for soldiers as sailors. There was probably one at Bovington.
     
  18. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    The only problem with this is that when the Andrew was involved there were no enemy tanks to fire at so that firing on the move meant firing at relatively static targets whilst moving. WW2 training was mainly about firing at moving targets. British tanks tended not to fire on the move.
     
  19. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Au Contraire. Read more on Dreadnaught.org.
    The naval gunnery problem was all about firing at targets ten times further away and moving at a higher speed than most tanks. Naval fire control was very sophisticated compared to any tank gunnery before the computer era. Check out Tony Lovell's 3 D simulation of Dreadnaught gunnery.
     
  20. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Yes but nothing whatsoever to do with tank gunnery
     

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