RTR, RAC, Cavalry use of tank names.

Discussion in 'Vehicle Names and Census Numbers' started by KevinT, May 30, 2011.

  1. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    I am not sure if this is the correct place for this post hopefully at a later date it can be split and posted to the right places.

    When the first RT battalions were formed they followed the initial practice of 1 RT = A, 2 RT =B, 3 RT =C, 4 RT =D.
    Up to about 10 RTR this seemed to follow. Can anyone tell me when or why this practice changed, or at least did in some cases, from 1, 2, 3,4 = A, B, C, D to being named after towns, pubs, birds and animals.......Accepting that there are only 26 letters in the alphabet.
    Some Cavalry Regiments named their tanks after Classic Horse Race winners, RAC seems to cover a multitude of types of names.
    145 RAC ( Duke of Welingtons ) for example, according to BT White's book, used D after its association with the initial letter of its former title. Some or all of the Regimental HQ tanks are believed to have had names beginning "Duke of ...." although I have not come across any yet. However other names I have found are ( Churchills ) Decisive, Defender, Destroyer, Diogenes, Dorothy and of course the Panther Deserter. This seems to indicate the use of Warship names.
    Can anyone add or expand on any of the above?

    Cheers
    Kevin
     
  2. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

  3. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Thanks Wills,

    I will post some RAC names but here are some RTR examples

    1st RTR
    Vickers Light
    “Andormeda”
    “Aberdeen”

    3rd RTR
    M3 Stuarts
    “Ceylon”
    “Cincinnatti”

    5th RTR
    Shermans
    “Easter Hero”
    “Em-an-Vee”

    7th RTR
    Matildas
    “Good Luck”
    “Go To It”

    8th RTR
    Matildas / Shermans
    “Honiton” ( Mat )
    “Hornet” ( Sher )

    9th RTR
    Churchills
    “Iceni”
    “Invincible”

    10th RTR
    Crusaders
    “Jaguar”
    “Jervis”

    Cheers
    Kevin
     
  4. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

  5. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    A great book including the Panther named Deserter :)

    B.T.White's British Tank Markings and Names




    Thanks. I have the book or at least a copy of it. But including Australian, Belgian, Canadian, Czech, Dutch, Indian, New Zealad, Polish infact any Allied counrty that was issued with vehicles carrying War Department census numbers I have another 3800 names.

    Cheers
    Kevin
     
    Za Rodinu likes this.
  6. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Kevin,

    Whilst my late fathers 4th Recce Regt, RAC, did not have tanks, but they had Armoured cars and 75mm equipped Half Tracks.

    I know from my father that four were named and marked with the names of the four Musketeers.

    Regards
    Tom
     
    dbf likes this.
  7. yeoman97

    yeoman97 Junior Member

    I was told by an RTR officer that their tank names are laid down in RTR standing orders and follow the initial letter A=1 RTR, initial letter B = 2RTR principle.
     
  8. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Kevin,

    Whilst my late fathers 4th Recce Regt, RAC, did not have tanks, but they had Armoured cars and 75mm equipped Half Tracks.

    I know from my father that four were named and marked with the names of the four Musketeers.

    Regards
    Tom

    Thanks Tom,

    This is exactly the type of information I am looking for. Do you have have any confirming photos or serial numbers?
    So far all I have found for 4th Recce are:-
    Blenheim, Crecy, Formidable, Meggiddo, Puffin, Revenge and Skua.
    These are all Humber LRC's. These names can be found in BT White's book.
    The only other place I have found the Musketeer name combination is the 14th / 20th King's Hussars and are Indian Pattern Wheeled Carriers.

    Yeoman,

    That maybe the case upto some point but as an example 11th RTR when they changed over to LVT's all had names beginning with S as opposed to K had they followed that principle.

    Cheers
    Kevin
     
  9. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Kevin,

    I just knew that you would ask that question.

    Of all the reports and books I have read I have not seen one entry to confirm the 4 Musketeers in the 4th Recce.
    So far I have only seen one good photograph of possibly a 4th Recce Halftrack with 75mm on page 18 of Ospreys The British Reconnaissance Corps in World War II.

    Some entries in the War Diaries, but not enough details, certainly no names or serial numbers.

    One lives in Hope as I found some French Tanks named after the Four Musketeers on a French Armour website.

    Regards
    Tom


    Thanks Tom,
    This is exactly the type of information I am looking for. Do you have have any confirming photos or serial numbers?
    So far all I have found for 4th Recce are:-
    Blenheim, Crecy, Formidable, Meggiddo, Puffin, Revenge and Skua.
    These are all Humber LRC's. These names can be found in BT White's book.
    The only other place I have found the Musketeer name combination is the 14th / 20th King's Hussars and are Indian Pattern Wheeled Carriers.

    Yeoman,

    That maybe the case upto some point but as an example 11th RTR when they changed over to LVT's all had names beginning with S as opposed to K had they followed that principle.

    Cheers
    Kevin
     
  10. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Kevin -
    Whilest the names of individual Tanks appears to be of some interest to-day- it was not always so as in the main - we had no ideas as to how they got their names - we were usually too busy to bother .....BUT - I note that from somewhere you have quoted the names of many of my "A" squadron 145th RAC and my own Tank
    of "Decisive" commanded by Sgt Trevor Williams R.I.P.- #5 TRoop Leader LT.Graham Frank Douse R.I.P.- in "Diogenes" and Corporal Jack Harman in "Defender" - the Panther was indeed humourously called "Deserter".......Decisive was a great Tank and served us well all through the North African campaign - then into Italy where we lost her at the Gothic line - in an act of sheer stupidity - only to have her roar past us at high speed - obviously ungoverened - as a replacemnt for another troop in the regiment - this is how it happened ....

    BBC - WW2 People's War - Green Envelopes for Tank Brigade, Rimini
    Cheers
     
  11. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Kevin -
    Whilest the names of individual Tanks appears to be of some interest to-day- it was not always so as in the main - we had no ideas as to how they got their names - we were usually too busy to bother .....BUT - I note that from somewhere you have quoted the names of many of my "A" squadron 145th RAC and my own Tank
    of "Decisive" commanded by Sgt Trevor Williams R.I.P.- #5 TRoop Leader LT.Graham Frank Douse R.I.P.- in "Diogenes" and Corporal Jack Harman in "Defender" - the Panther was indeed humourously called "Deserter".......Decisive was a great Tank and served us well all through the North African campaign - then into Italy where we lost her at the Gothic line - in an act of sheer stupidity - only to have her roar past us at high speed - obviously ungoverened - as a replacemnt for another troop in the regiment - this is how it happened ....

    BBC - WW2 People's War - Green Envelopes for Tank Brigade, Rimini
    Cheers

    Hello Tom,

    With your permission can I add the crew names to my database?

    Great story. One does wonder how the Allies managed to win the war.

    Cheers
    Kevin
     
  12. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    http://northirishhorse.net/articles-2/Units/ScotsGuards.html


    Perhaps someone has more information. on this it states A.B and C Sqns for 3rd bn Scots Guards.This would be an odd break from the norm for Scots Guards. To this day we call the first company Right Flank, the centre Company will have a letter B, etc. The third company Left Flank.
    Names: Towns
    Islands
    Rivers


    The Coldstream had one Sqn named after Ships of the line -RN.
     
  13. yeoman97

    yeoman97 Junior Member

    Yeoman,

    That maybe the case upto some point but as an example 11th RTR when they changed over to LVT's all had names beginning with S as opposed to K had they followed that principle.

    Cheers
    Kevin[/QUOTE]

    Interesting, although in fairness my RTR colleague led his squadron in the late 1980s when they only went up to 4RTR. Sadly even fewer now.

    Some units seem to have been less formal about this than others: 3/4CLY's HQ tanks were the respectable "Sharpshooter" and "Jerboa", but photos of dead 4CLY vehicles at Villers Bocage show an "Allakeefek", and a "Shufti Cush" (this is a family website so no translation in either case, but it makes you wonder how they got those past the heirarchy). There was also an "Old Bill - probably named after its commander, Lt Bill Cotton, as well as the Bairnsfather character. Most other vehicles in the regiment, however, seem to have carried only their T number and formation signs.

    Another consideration is that as the war went on crews became less attached to their vehicles, bearing in mind that they might have to bale out in a hurry and that many replacement vehicles bore signs of previous damage and previous crews
     
  14. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Kevin
    As far as I am concerned - I have no objections as to you adding the crews names to your data base - good way to remember them in my view - just wish I could remember them all.....in Lt Douse's crew there was Alf Spence ( overage at 38 - but no one was counting ) as W/op - Eric Barker as driver - "Cockney' Taylor as gunner (from London- strangely) and "wog" Mallison as co- driver ) he was dark skinned)

    In Sergeant Wiliams (Barnsley)crew there was myself as w/op - Charlie Bailey( Keighley) as Driver - Harry Grey( Halifax) as gunner - and Harold Whattingham( London) as co-driver.

    Corporal Harman's crew is fairly blank but Ernie Barker ( Eric's cousin- we had five Barkers in the squadron - all cousins)

    can't recall many more except the Scots - Wullie Fenn - Bill Ducey - Archie McLennan .....Briggs and Thirkill from Halifax who always starred in our Concerts but not many more - except the officers Major Lyall Lusted from Dorking who finished up commanding 12 RTR - Major Jimmy ( Norman ) Ingram R.I.P.(2 troop) Major Christopher Newton- Thompson (2i/c)- Lts. Dring(4th) -Gardiner(1st) - Reynolds 3rd)- Douse(5th) - we had a complete new set after the Gothic line with two killed - three wounded and three promoted ....
    it was 70 years ago......
    Cheers
     
  15. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Interesting, although in fairness my RTR colleague led his squadron in the late 1980s when they only went up to 4RTR. Sadly even fewer now.

    Some units seem to have been less formal about this than others: 3/4CLY's HQ tanks were the respectable "Sharpshooter" and "Jerboa", but photos of dead 4CLY vehicles at Villers Bocage show an "Allakeefek", and a "Shufti Cush" (this is a family website so no translation in either case, but it makes you wonder how they got those past the heirarchy). There was also an "Old Bill - probably named after its commander, Lt Bill Cotton, as well as the Bairnsfather character. Most other vehicles in the regiment, however, seem to have carried only their T number and formation signs.

    Another consideration is that as the war went on crews became less attached to their vehicles, bearing in mind that they might have to bale out in a hurry and that many replacement vehicles bore signs of previous damage and previous crews[/QUOTE]

    As it is a family website translations can be read as " can't be bothered" and "An easy billet".

    I take your point regarding baling out. I know that some regiments would re-name a replacement tank if there had been a crew loss as it was considered bad luck to call it I, II, III etc. Although I have a reference to a Sherman Firefly from 1st RTR called "Adaptable VIII".

    Tom,

    Thank you. I will add the crew names where applicable.
    I am surprised to read that there were 5 cousins in the same squadron. I thought that after WWI when the men from some small town and village regiments were practically decimated, that families were split up?

    Cheers
    Kevin
     
  16. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Kevin - that was indeed the case in the WW1 but the 145th RAC evolved from the 8th Batt DoW's on 15th November 1941 at Hevingham - obviously a territorial battalion which had not had too much training in Infantry skills and so easier to train as Tank crews - of the five cousins three were drivers and the other two as gunners- Ernie - Eric and Ken were drivers and I've forgotten the other two as gunners.
    The regimental history of course never mentions other ranks only Officers and so we have to guess a great deal. Interestingly enough the first two Tanks - Churchills Mk IIa were taken on charge by the 18th November - followed on 2nd Dec with three and a further two on 3rd dec. and by the end of December they had 18 mixed Churchill MK1 & 11's to play with.
    It was late in December 1942 in Scotland before they saw the first MkIV Churchill in which they were due to fight in North Africa in March '43 and so it was exercise after exercise until they boarded the " HT Ormonde" from Glasgow to Algiers arriving 23rd March.Tanks all arrived by 18th April - and by 21st April two troops under Capt Newton Thompson engaged a Tiger and two MkIv's before calling up the whole of "A" squadron to knock out the two MKIv's - three O.R's killed .....and the rest is History
    Cheers
     
  17. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hello Tom,

    From a list of WD census numbers that were sent to me by Roddy de Normann it appears that many of the early Churchills you had in 1942 ended up with 147th RAC by 1943.
    I have the numbers if you are interested.

    Cheers
    Kevin
     
    MarkN likes this.
  18. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Thanks. I have the book or at least a copy of it. But including Australian, Belgian, Canadian, Czech, Dutch, Indian, New Zealad, Polish infact any Allied counrty that was issued with vehicles carrying War Department census numbers I have another 3800 names.

    Cheers
    Kevin

    So I have to buy Vol.2 :D
     
  19. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Kevin -
    Numbers are meaningless to me as we never seemed to bother with that sort of detail - obviously someone had to keep tabs on them for the sake of the establishment- but not for us to worry about - the early marks sent on to 147th RAC were good for initial training and perhaps they were raised after the 145th RAC as I note that 146th RAC also came from the 9th Batt. DoW's-

    most of those numbered RAC regiments were evolved from Infantry units - Suffolks - Buffs - Sherwoods - East Lancs - Gordons -Lancs etc ....about 56 in total - when the real need was for more Infantry as we saw in the late '44

    Cheers
     
  20. battleofassche

    battleofassche Well-Known Member

    Hi, would anyone have any info on the Vickers Mk VI called HORSA which is photographed in Assche after the May 18 battle involving A Squadron of the 15th/19th Hussars. Trying to determine if it was an FHQ or 5th Troop tank.

    Thanks Steve
     

Share This Page