Recently joined the forum and impressed as many very knowledgeable members. Have my grandfather's service record attached and like others in here am struggling to decipher it. He spent most of his time in India but would like to know movements and which actual units and any history of them at the time. He used to tell a tale of guarding Ghandi at one time! As you can see he also served in the Manchester Regiment TA until 1839. I have no idea what he did until joining the RAF in 1944. Would he not have been re-enlisted? Appreciate any help with this please.
Welcome aboard. Others who are expert in interpreting WW" RAF records may be along. It is vital to show his name etc within the text; Rainford HOLT, b. 6/1/1907, RAF Service No. 2256780. Neither the name or service no. have appeared here before your post. I suspect he was considered too old for service before 1944, when he was 37yrs old. As his civilian profession is (oddly) blanked out, perhaps he was considered too vital for war work? By 1944 the manpower demands of the war were reaching a peak in Europe and a possibly long war with Japan loomed. On pg.2 there are the following abbreviations. First note the first left hand column refers to RAF orders that decided where he was posted. 60 MU would normally mean 60 Maintenance Unit, except Wiki shows it never left the UK. From: List of Royal Air Force Maintenance units - Wikipedia 2 PDC Physical Development Centre 8/2/1945 See: 2 Pdc Which indicates it was in the UK. ACSEA Air Command South East Asia 6/3/1945 94 E. Unit stumps me, possibly Engineering? CMH Wallair Possibly Colaba Military Hospital Bombay? There are several places in India with that name for roads, hospitals (one was a mental hospital) etc. More research needed. 16 BCD Barrack and Clothing Depot. From: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/77031398.pdf New one on me and the main source used here: WW2 Abbreviations and Acronyms | Researching the Lives and Records of WW2 Soldiers This thread may help, I have not read it: RAF Units in India
Hi, Sorry can’t help re RAF service but I think you have misinterpreted his army service. He was in the TA for only a short while in 1926/27 - likely to see whether he took to army life - before enlisting in the Regular Army in June 1927 for 12 years - 7 years with the colours and 5 in the reserve - so he had no liability for further military service when war broke out in September 1939. 2nd Battalion Manchester Regiment served in India 1922/32 so he may have had contact with Gandhi at some time but you need to see his army service record. The 1939 Register may reveal his Sept 1939 occupation and whether that precluded his call up to RAF until 1944. You might want to apply to MOD for his army service file. You will receive many more documents than RAF have provided. Steve
I was right very knowledgeable people here. Thankyou so much for the advice, information and links. I have already applied for his army records although there is a backlog of 8 months. The hospital CMH I interpreted as a Central Military Hospital. Assume he was in it for some reason. Just wondering if, as was suggested he was thought to have done his service during his army days, then why he was in again in 44. Conscripted back in or volunteered? I have records if census for him so will recheck to see what his job was during the gap. Would really like to find where he was stationed in India. Seems I also misinterpreted the entry B . CD. I thought maybe Burma? Also grateful for the info about his army service, can I ask how you determined he was rs2 and the regular please? I only have two pictures of him during service if it helps anyone then can post.
Hi, I’ve put 2 of your above queries in bold - 1. He would have been conscripted as the opportunities for voluntary enlistment during WW2 were very limited as manpower was controlled by Ministry of Labour. A 37 year old man without specialist skills was not an attractive potential recruit. Military manpower was stretched by 1944 - D Day was imminent - and suitable RAF & Royal Artillery men were compulsorily transferred to the infantry. He likely “backfilled” the vacancies as at 37 years of age he was on the old side for an infantry role. 2. I’ve seen many thousands of service records over the years so I’m able to interpret often brief entries. My father had TA service for 20 months in the mid 1930’s before enlisting in the Regular Army. TA service prior to Regular Army service was very common. Times were hard in the Industrial north of England in the 1920’s and 30’s and the availability of 3 square meals a day and a chance to see the world was an attractive option to many young men. If men who left school with no qualifications at 14 took advantage of the army educational opportunities and obtained a Class 1 or Class 2 Education Certificate their post discharge employment opportunities could be improved. The previous engagement portion of P1 of his RAF record shows in the left column 3 separate entries 1. Manchester Regiment 2. TA 3. Reg As only the one Regiment is listed he likely served in his local Manchester Regiment TA Battalion before joining the Regular Army Manchester Regiment - likely spending some time with 2nd Battalion in India (could have been anywhere in modern day India, Pakistan, Burma or Sri Lanka (Ceylon) - service record will confirm movements) The next column to the right has 3 sets of dates that with my experience I can confidently interpret as follows - 1. Feb 26 to June 27 - part time TA service 2. June 27 to June 34 - full time 7 year regular army service 3. June 34 to June 39 - 5 years Class B Army Reserve service when he would likely be recalled for 2 weeks annual training and have been liable to full time mobilization in the event of an outbreak of war or civil unrest. He would receive 9d reserve pay a day - paid quarterly = £4 approx. RAF clearly had sight of his army record in 1944 to calculate the dates of his service and his Good Conduct Badge entitlement. By all means attach the photo’s you have. Steve
Delboy, For CMH Wiki possibly helps. There is a contemporary use of Command Military Hospital, with twelve in India. None of them are linked to a location matching Willair. Note the Indian military each have their own hospitals. See: List of Armed Forces Hospitals In India - Wikipedia The RAF did have their own hospitals. Alas the usual source for British Military Hospitals does not list them and uses a different abbreviation BGH British General Hospital. See: Hospitals WW2 - Scarlet Finders New to me, the RAF had their own nurses: Princess Mary's (Royal Air Force) Nursing Service. From: WW2 Abbreviations and Acronyms | Researching the Lives and Records of WW2 Soldiers
In 1939 Rainford was a Aircraft Assembler Welder, would that have precluded him for also being called up until 44, was it a protected trade? I would think not.
He enters RAF as a Maintenance Assistant in Trade Group V eg unskilled First posting is to No.60 MU which was tasked with mainly sorting/inspecting aircraft salvage/reduced to product equipment 5 Salvage Centre, formed at Tollerton September 1939; later became 60 Maintenance Unit;... | The National Archives As a Maintenance Assistant his job was mostly repair handyman for the infrastructure and lift/move for goods in/out. HH is headquarters holding so he was not assigned to the unit for establishment post but there as part of manpower reserve. 27/12/44 he has a trade change from Maintenance Assistant to Under/Training Embarkation Assistant and this is the reason for posting to School of Administrative Trades RAF Instruction Unit: School of Administrative Trades, Kirkham (UK). With appendices | The National Archives Qualifies as Embarkation Assistant (trade group III) on 22/1/45 and looks like embarkation leave before posting to No.2 Personnel Despatch Centre. 6 Recruit Centre, Wilmslow (UK); later became 2 Personnel Despatch Centre (PDC). Based... | The National Archives Not as staff because he is assigned to India. Posted to No.94 Embarkation Unit where he carries out the duties of his trade 94 Embarkation Unit, Vizagapatam, Madras, India; formed 16 April 1944; became RAF... | The National Archives Admitted to hospital for three weeks Looks like he needed time to recover and was sent to 16 Depot 16 Depot | The National Archives No date for return to duties at No.94 Embarkation Unit but when India Command was renamed it appears he was back at that unit. Ross
Thanks for attaching all 5 photo’s. The first 2 are too blurred. The 3rd photo looks to be from his pre war Manchester Regiment service and was likely taken in India. He has an arm let on his right arm that might be RP - Regimental Police. As he isn’t in uniform in the last 2 photos there is no military information to be gleaned. In relation to his wartime employment. If he was living in Rochdale he may have been working in aircraft production at Old Trafford but if memory serves me well there were also aircraft factories in nearby Oldham & Chadderton? https://www.avroheritagemuseum.co.uk/chadderton#:~:text=No expense was spared and,1939 at Chadderton, near Oldham.&text=Aircraft production commenced with the,which was built under licence. https://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/heritage/chadderton As the war progressed his “protected” status might have diminished (perhaps replaced by women in the workplace?) and as armed services requirements increased Min of Labour likely reclassified him as available for conscription. Steve
Thanks Steve, found there was a factory repairing aircraft also in Rochdale but no details only a name. Newbarn Engineering Company, also in Oldham - Albany Street metal and engineering company. Civilian Repair Organisation - Wikipedia
Ross, many thanks for this, Would never have been able to work all that out. Also saw he sat exam for what seems to be promotion and scored 64%. Just before he got out. Have I interpreted that correctly? Now wondering why he was in hospital, no records ifcourse, just curiosity. Derek
First examination is at the School for A.T. and is the reason for his change of trade (Group V to Group III) equates to more money each week. Second examination is by a Local Trade Test Board (LTTB) and they are looking at his knowledge of his trade and for suitability of advancement in rank (reclassification). His promotion from AC2 to AC1 is a result of his performance in the LTTB. Again this change in classification triggers a new Character and Proficiency assessment - as normal because this is personal performance detail it has been redacted. Hospital records are also redacted so no point looking elsewhere. Whatever the illness was it did not cause a lasting impairment to his ability to do assigned admin tasks. Ross
Having researched a little more about the CMH hospital, although it looks to be spelt Wallair, its actually Waltair which was also known as Vizagatapam where he was stationed with No. 94 Embarkation Unit 1/4/45. Seems he may have fell ill there and ended up in what must of been the local military hospital. Interestingly Waltair was mentioned in the Houses of Parliament where MP's (following a visit in 1945) had raised the issue of the insanitary environment in which personnel had to live. Seems it caused many health related issues at the time.
