The key to this error is in the words of Alexander when he talked about 1st Army's attack on April 22nd - which was the Vulcan push - the final push of May 6-12th was Monty inspired at a meeting in his Hq when Alex flew down for that meeting - with Harry Bradhurst sitting in and relating that Monty told Alex that - "Jorrocks - he's your man" after Horrocks' very successful attack at El hamma . Cheers
Further to 4th Wilts thinking - Maj Gen "Pip" Rberts had been Lt Col.of 3rd tanks then Brigadier of 23rd Armoured at Alum el Halfa- and El Alamein- all through the desert and around the time of Medenine when Lumsden was fired - Roberts was transferred to 6th Armoured as Brigadier 26th Armoured - and took his upright piano with him for relaxation in the back of a three tonner and entertained everyone to a jazz festival nightly ... Cheers
I am looking for detailed information on the order of battle for Blade Force in November 1942. My goal is to list the number of soldiers and their duty position from the tank/detachment/section up to the troop/platoon, squadron/battery/company, and finally the regiment/battalion. I am looking for information that describes how many cooks, ammunition handlers, intelligence clerks, etc. were in the regiment, and what vehicles they rode in and operated out of. I have found good (at least enough) information for the 1st Derbyshire Yeomanry, C Battery of the 12th Royal Horse Artillery, 72nd Anti-Tank Regiment, B Company of the 10th Rifle Brigade, and the 457th Independent Motorize Light Battery (3.7" Howitzers) Royal Artillery. I am unable to find a detailed order of battle for the 17th/21st Lancers. I have pieced together the following: -18 Crusader IIIs with 6-pdr main gun - 27 Valentine III with 2-pdr main gun - 6 Crusader II Close Support tanks with 3" howitzer - 10 command tanks. These may be Crusader IIs or IIIs or Valentine IIIs - 8 Crusader III AA Mk I - 36 Officers - 644 Other Ranks Based on this thread I have ordered "Mailed Fist" by Mr. Ford, but must wait for at least two weeks for delivery. In the opinion of the folks that have read "Mailed Fist", will I find any of the detailed information I am looking for? Does anyone have any good suggestions on where I can find this detailed OOB information for the 17th/21st Lancers in November 1942? I appreciate any help and suggestions.
Mud grunt all you will find in " Mailed Fist " is the OOB of the whole division in the Appendix as of October 1940 - and a whole chapter on Blade Force…. your piecing together of the 17/21st Lancers appears to be a bit ambitious inasmuch as you have detailed some 69 various Tanks whereas the Established Strength of any Armoured Regiment was around 57 Tanks….perhaps the History of the 17/21st by Lt Col French Blake might have a better list of manpower that you are looking for rather than Mailed Fist…on the basis that he was the Colonel of the regiment wounded in North Africa but returned in Italy….. whereas Ford was an Author just reading diaries etc…frankly - I was a bit underwhelmed by the book... Cheers
Tom, Thanks for the reply. Based on your advice I found and purchased a copy of A History of the 17th/21st Lancers, 1922-1959 by Lt Col. Ffrench Blake. It’ll the be the New Year before I get my copy... I am writing an account and analysis of the first engagement between a U.S. armored unit and a German armored unit in WWII - the U.S. 1st Light Tank Battalion/1st Armored Regiment/1st Armored Division vs. elements of the German 190th Panzer Battalion and Italian 10th Bersaglieri Regiment. To give context and show the events that lead up to the battle occurring 26 November 1942 in the Tine River valley in northern Tunisia I want to describe the Allied and Axis units engaged in the “Race for Tunisia”. Because so many people have no idea of the size and composition of an armored regiment, infantry battalion, artillery battery etc., I want to give an overview of the numbers of soldiers and equipment in the various formations. The effort to find these details has become much more difficult that I thought it would be. I am going to have to publish with an inconsistent level of detail per formation, based on the information I’ve been able to find, highlighting where details are missing or information is suspect. I also want the reader to comprehend the scale of motorization and mechanization of the Allied forces in the Race for Tunisia. As I find more information and detail’s I’ll put out further editions. The numbers I have for the 17th/21st Lancers are derived from the following: - http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/939BXAB.pdf, in the section titled Armored Brigade (UK) - No. VII August 1942. - Crusader and Covenanter Cruiser Tanks 1939-45, David Fletcher; Published 1995 by Osprey Publishing, Ltd, Elms Court, chapel Way, Botley, Oxford OX2 9LP, United Kingdom; ISBN: 1 855325 5128. Page 22 & 23 describes the 17th/21st Lancers and 16th/5th Lancers of the 6th Armored Division having troops comprised of Valentine Mk IIIs and Crusader IIIs, with page 23 stating “The 17th/21st Lancers had six 6-pdr. Crusaders to each squadron and two Crusader close support tanks with each squadron headquarters.” Feel free to challenge these references. I would be grateful for any other references you could point me to.
Mudgrunt Can't really challenge your figures just going by the Established strengths of an Armoured Brigade at that time but we all know how many "extras" were found - we even "found"" a Panther for a while in Northern Italy - so you might be right….can't think of any other references apart from the 'Blade Force Chapter" which shows the path of the 1st US Armoured Battalion bumping into the German advance at Chigioui and again at Tebourba and finally at the Airfield at Djedeidia Cheers
These are Valentines in Tunisia. One at least is 6pdr armed from 17/21 Lancers (see cap badge). One is towing a Rotatrailer. David Fletcher says that 17/21 Lancers are the only unit recorded as using them. 6pdr Valentine of 17/21 Lancers Valentine with Rotatrailer. Valentine of 17/21 Lancers (according to PRO) captured and used by the Germans. Mike
Gents, I have gotten my copy of Mailed Fist by Ken Ford and A History of the 17th/21st Lancers 1922-1959 by Lt.-Col R. L. V. ffrench Blake. I've read the chapters of each book that cover up to December 31 1942 - Chapters 1 & 2 in Mailed Fist; Chapters 1 - 6 in A History of the 17th/21st Lancers 1922-1959. Neither book gave me a detailed listing of the equipment and soldiers I am looking for, but the story each tells provides information from which I can glean some details. Both are worth reading. I am particularly enjoying A History of the 17th/21st Lancers 1922-1959. Published in 1962 it is not only a very good history of the Regiment, but the writing has an attitude and perspective I grew up with and like, but would be ridiculed in the new millennium. As a U.S. American who served in both the United States Marine Corps and the U.S. Army, the book helped me gain a bit more of a feeling for the British Army of that time. The British Army of 1942 is very similar to my military experience, but significant details are different enough that I don't have a gut feel for the British organizations. I still don't know the numbers of officers and other ranks in the Echelon 'B' of the 17th/21st Lancers, or other such information, but now I have more information to work with.
Mudgrunt Think you will find that both "A" and "B" echelons of an Armoured or Tank Brigade are officered by a junior 2nd or full Lieutenant and approx 25 men - one sergeant and a couple of corporals with a few 15cwt trucks to carry supplies from Division or Corps to Brigade and on to the "F" or fighting Echelons of each battalion or regiment who invariably appeared in the evening when we were back in Laager to distribute Ammo - Food - Mail - Spare parts etc - anything that was needed to continue a battle the next day... Cheers
Mudgrunt... It might help your "Gut" feeling for the British Army if you knew something of it's make up in the WW2 days - which is now changed to battle groups et al An Army Group consisted of three Armies... An Army consisted of three Corps... A Corps consisted of three Divisions... A Division consisted of three Brigades ( US and German Regiments ) A Brigade consisted of three Battalions of various regiments... A Battalion consisted of - normally FIVE companies…of approx 150 men each in platoons of 30 men and sections of 10 men Armoured units were different inasmuch as a battalion( Regiment ) was made up of three and sometimes four Squadrons of Tanks with two Echelons for supplies Hope this helps Cheers
Hi Trux Do you have any more pics of the 17/21st Lancers. After looking at the photos we think that the gent on the left is my wives grandfather Sgt H Melling who won the DCM at Fondouk. Thanks Steve
