Raydon airfield-use by British army

Discussion in 'Airborne' started by Michael S, Jan 19, 2017.

  1. Michael S

    Michael S Member

    My Dad,William Sutton(1600128), was enlisted into REME and served in 3rd AA and 6th AA units (Washington and Edinburgh) and then 21 Advance Base Workshop as a Craftsman (according to his Glasgow record).His uniform shows a 39 45 Star, an Italy Star and an MID Oakleaf (none of which on his Glasgow record). My Dad attended a coding course at Bletchley Park and was commissioned as a Captain (no.335250) in November 1944 at the age of 19-an exceptional achievement for a craftsman.
    He was billeted in Hadleigh and flew in a glider from Raydon airfield with some special forces troops as part of the Arnhem operations. The glider landed short of it's target and the troops (apart from my Dad all killed-not sure if this was in combat or due to a crash landing).My Dad was in France where he was wounded by shrapnel but made his way back to the UK.
    Raydon is normally listed as having been used by USAF personnel so I guess it is possible (is it?) that the glider may have been launched by a US aircraft.Any info on this would be much appreciated-he is not listed at Duxford by ParaData.
    He was also in Southern Italy and probably met Popski as amongst his miniscule collection of mementoes was a Popski cap badge-again any info gratefully received.
     
  2. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Hi Michael

    Can you post up his service records?

    You say he has an Italy Star, but you don't mention when he was there.

    You also say the you father was on the Arnhem operation, but dropped short and was the sole survivor, but then say he was in France when he was wounded - France at the time of Arnhem was well and truly in Allied hands.

    Do you also have his date and place of birth

    TD
     
  3. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    Your father's service is shown on the following site (British Army Officers 1939-1945  -- S). This shows that he attended Officer Cadet Course No 148 at Wrotham between 31st July 1944 and 18th November 1944. Operation Market Garden (Arnhem) took place right in the middle of this course between 17th and 26th September 1944 - I think it highly unlikely that they would have released Officer Cadets in the middle of their course to go on Special Forces missions.
     
    4jonboy and Tricky Dicky like this.
  4. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    Michael.

    Horsap is right. The tales that you have been told do not seem to square with his record. I am mystified by the Italy Star. If it is not on his record then he did not serve in Italy - period.

    Regards

    Frank
     
  5. Michael S

    Michael S Member

    Thank you very much for the feedback. I attach my Dad's service info as provided by the REME museum "interpretation" of the Glasgow record. My Dad was born in East Ham, London on 3rd December 1924. So far as his Italy Star is concerned I believe he may have been part of the REME team which was flown to Italy with one of the Airborne Divisions. After the war we flew back from East Africa to the UK and stopped off in Rome so that my Mum could meet an Italian Count my Dad had met in Italy during the war.This could be, could be, Count Spangoletti (that Popski refers to in his book as being supportive ) the same chap-this was in the latter part of 1943. I would also add that when I spoke to Colonel Sibbons about the disparity between the Glasgow form and what I thought we knew he did not seem unduly surprised. This could be because being new REME may not have had the systems and procedures of older regiments. Certainly when I looked at some of the war diaries they were pretty useless at conveying any worthwhile information.I remember my Dad talking about grouping on the South Coast so I think he may have been involved in the D Day ops.
    Thanks again
     

    Attached Files:

  6. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    Michael.

    I cannot see from his record where he would have fitted in the 28 days required to be entitled to the Italy Star.

    Regards

    Frank
     
  7. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Reading that document has confused me as in post 1 you said he was wounded by shrapnel in France, but the document states:
    "However, just prior to his unit's deployment to France, Craftsman Sutton was selected for a commission by a War Office Selection Board" which he went off and did then was posted to Middle East 24 Jan 1945


    TD
     
  8. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    WW2 Campaign Stars & Medals info thread
    The Italy Star is awarded for 1 or more days’ operational service
    • in the Italy Campaign from 11 June 1943 to 8 May 1945,
    • in the Aegean, Dodecanese, Greece and Yugoslavia after 11 June 1943,
    • in Sicily up to 17 August 1943,
    • in Sardinia up to 19 September 1943 and
    • in Corsica up to 4 October 1943.
    There are other criteria
    NZDF Medals - The Italy Star Regulations
     
  9. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    Just a few questions and observations - sorry if they've been raised previously.

    Is there an Army Medal Office Stamp on his service papers? If so it should indicate the date and number of medals issued post war - assuming he claimed them?

    In respect of 39/45 Star - it would appear from what you say that he doesn't satisfy the usual 180 day campaign service eligibility rule.

    However he could be eligible as the recipient of a MID and/or through service for one day in one of the locations in the attached long list of mostly Commando type operations.

    NZDF - The 1939 - 1945 Star regulations

    Have you found his MID in London Gazette?

    Perhaps a Special Forces expert could comment on the lack of confirmation of service unit & locations on AF B103? Is it usual/common. You may want to post a separate topic?

    Having seen numerous service records on the forum and elsewhere, although to be fair not UK Special Forces, including some Canadian Special Service Brigade - the B103 usually records an accurate account of a soldiers active service units and locations in support of the medals awarded.

    Steve Y
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2017
  10. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    Michael
    I am afraid that, once again, the documentation points to your Father not being available for posting on an Airborne Division operation in Italy.
    The 1st Airborne Division was in Italy from 10 September to late November 1943 at which time, cccording to the document that you have posted, your Father was serving as an instrument mechanic at No 3 Anti Aircraft Workshop Company, REME Edinburgh with a period of being confined to barracks in late October/early November. Also it should be remembered that no Airborne units actually flew direct to Italy. They all went first to North Africa, from where they invaded Sicily in July, and then went to Italy by sea after its capitulation on 10 September.
    Could I suggest that, if you have not already done so, you obtain a copy of his Service Record from the MoD rather than rely on the REME "interpretation". This should provide you with the precise dates of embarkation and return to the UK for any overseas posting that he undertook. The number of days service at "Home" and "Overseas" was calculated for all members of the Armed Forces and appears as part of their service record. From this you should be able to provide the dates of the Airborne and/or Special Forces operations in which he apparently participated. Armed with that sort of information it might be possible to identify the specific missions.
     
  11. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    You absolutely have to have the original record from Glasgow - although I can't see how even the REME interpretation omits a large part of what the family stories tell? I have interviewed a lot of veterans and their families in my time and there is often a huge disparity between events, memories of those events which are after all, stories retold and becoming familiar, well trodden paths, yet changing over time. I emphasise that this is a natural state of affairs and there is no right or wrong, but even members of my own family have told me how a relative died in 1940 and all have sworn that they were right. I have spoken to veterans who swore that they were there when he was killed, but simply cannot have been. What I write about is precisely that convergence between all those elements which combine powerfully with myths about WW2 to give us the version of 'history' which we end up with - it's always a compromise.
     
  12. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Michael,

    I presume it is a photo of your father in your Avatar?

    I can see he is wearing several medal ribbons. Do you know when the photograph was taken?

    Perhaps if you posted a larger image on the forum members might be able to see which medals are worn.

    IMHO It would be very unusual for a serving officer to wear medal ribbons to which he was not entitled.

    Steve Y
     
  13. Michael S

    Michael S Member

    Again thank you for the various inputs. And yes it is my Dad in the Avatar.It is a puzzle to me why there is such a difference between the B200s and what I believe my Dad was involved in, And he did seem to be involved in quite a few things. The medals on his uniform were identified by the medals expert at the REME museum (the photo being taken just after the end of the war) and the "interpretation" was done by Colonel Sibbons (at the REME museum based on B200s).I have posted form B200 and also Form B2617 which refers to him being in 22 Advance Base Workshop rather than 21.
    I did not get on too well with my Dad so I am not an unblinkered son but I cannot imagine he embellished his service. Like many soldiers he hardly spoke at all about his time in the war but I have little doubt he stood out as he would not have been sent to Bletchley Park nor would he have been commissioned from the rank of Craftsman at the age of 19.It is not the sort of thing that happens to somebody maintaining AA guns.
    His MID is not in the London Gazette but I gather from one of the archivists I was in touch with that this is not unusual.I accept the question mark on his Italy Star were it not for his Popski badge and the visit to Rome.to meet the Italian Count.His only other wartime momento was a Pegasus tie.
    Does anybody know where the detailed archives are for REME and if I could gain access?
    Thanks
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi Michael,

    This is a real conundrum as your Dad's service papers only support his eligibility for Defence Medal & War Medal based on home service as his record doesn't prove any eligibility for overseas campaign medals.

    I doubt any further enquiry with MOD in Gladgow or the Medal Office will help you. The authorities, like forum members, can only rely on the evidence in his army papers so many years after the event.

    On the other hand, as per my previous post, I personally doubt he would've been wearing medal ribbons to which he was not entitled while a serving officer in the immediate post war period.

    Good Luck in your search.

    Steve Y
     
  15. Michael S

    Michael S Member

    Thanks Steve. A real (and very frustrating ) conundrum. REME are opening a new museum in the spring and I am planning to comb through whatever info they have to try and get to the bottom of things.There was, FYI, a REME detachment with the 1st Airborne Division which arrived in Italy in September 1943 and although made preparations for D Day was held back and involved in Market Garden in September 1944.
    Stay tuned !
    Michael
     
  16. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    Michael
    I remain confused by the clear discrepancy between your Father's Service record and your claim that he served overseas in Italy in 1943 and again with a Special Forces operation at the time of Arnhem in September 1944. The copy of his service record posted by you clearly shows that, up to the date of his Commission on 17 November 1944 (two months after Arnhem), he had served continuously in the UK for the whole period since his enlistment on 19 January 1939 with no overseas service whatsoever being indicated. All 5 years 304 days service are shown as being served at "Home" (In England, Scotland or Ireland)

    His later service as an officer may well have taken him into the area which made him eligible for the Italy Star but you have not posted his service records covering that period. His records up to 17 November 1944 certainly indicate no eligibility for this award.
     

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  17. Michael S

    Michael S Member

    I know just what you mean about the discrepancy about which my brother and I have pondered on many occasions. However we are as sure as we can be he was sent to Bletchley Park for a coding course. Why would he need that for maintaining predictors on AA equipment? How was a life doing that going to rapidly progress him from Craftsman to Captain? If he did not serve in Italy why would he stop off in Rome after the war to meet an Italian Count? He had shrapnel wounds. How? My brother went with him to Raydon in the 1970s and had little doubt from my Dad's reaction that there was a strong emotional tug.
    After his commission my Dad was sent to East Africa, mainly Nairobi, running various workshops and HQ functions.There was no military action I am aware of.
    I am quite prepared to imagine that with REME being a new regiment that procedures and record keeping was not as good as many of the longer established units. A look at some of the War Diaries will tell you that record keeping was of very variable quality as some of them would make you believe that little or nothing happened for weeks on end.
     
  18. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    You seek to blame the lack of supporting information for your spurious claims on poor record keeping in REME as it was a new unit but you fail to realise that when it was formed the main nucleus of Officers and men that were posted to it came from existing, long standing, Regiments such as RE, RASC, RAOC etc. All of these troops were already serving in units where they would have been well aware of and well practised in the British Army's requirements of accurate record keeping. Are you suggesting that they took the opportunity of being posted to a new unit to let these standards slip? I don't think so and am confident that no such decline in standards of record keeping would have been accepted.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
  19. Dave L

    Dave L Junior Member

    Michael
    I doubt the REME paperwork was wrong as many new regiments (Parachute, GPR etc) were also new to the Army, and there is no prblem with those records.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
  20. Michael S

    Michael S Member

    I am still looking !! However those who felt the army records were infallible might like to read section 5 of this email from Colonel Mike Crabbe who is in charge of the archives at the REME museum and who has highlighted another individual whose service was not in accord with the army records. I will be visiting Kew a little later in the year with a list of unit war diaries to go through and should that reveal nothing will then look at employing a professional researcher. I gather from Mike Crabbe that my Dad's 39-45 Star was possibly awarded for his service in the AA unit as it was argued that many soldiers manning them had as tough a time as some of those in combat abroad.
     

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