4th (Durham) Survey Regiment, RA

His parents lived 1 Lime Trees Gardens, Low Fell, Gateshead. This was one street over from my wife's grandparents ..

There are notices about his death in the Newcastle Evening Chronicle of 07 July 1944 "only son of C. T. Garbutt"

 

4th Survey Regt

 

We remember them.







The casualties of the regiment 1939 to 1945 as listed in the 1947 Nominal Roll for the founding of the Old Comrades Association

 

I can't see if tyhis has been posted before but the second edition of the history of 4th Durham survey regiment Whetton and Ogden is available online here http://www.defencesurveyors.org.uk/Images/Historical/WWII/Z_Location_Survey_in_War.pdf

 

Three medals for '4th durham Survey Regiment RA 1945 Athletics' are currently for sale on ebay.co.uk
They are inscribed '400 metres 1st', 'Relay Race 1st' and '200 metres 3rd'.

There appears to be no name on the medals.

Has anyone come across any mention of Athletics in the war diaries?

 

The one standing looks very much like my father - Gunner J B Mindel

 

Look interesting .. did we have contact a few years ago? I have the attached extract in my files

Robin

 

I belive we have. That must have been neer his passing in 2013.

 

Always a difficult time. Have you seen any of the POW memoirs of others who were captured with him?

R

 

I've seen some videos of others on utube. I Gunner Mindel on tape when we interviewed him for family history project. However that is in Hebrew and need to be subtitled. He had two wonderful escapes while in Italy but recaptured. Nerowly escaped beenig torpedoed by the royal navy ehile shiped from the northern desert to Greeace and many anecdotes

 

Hello everyone,
I can not tell you how excited I am at finding this thread.
A few years ago I tried to find out about Michael Picker. Where he went, what he did and ultimately what happened to him during the war.
I was looking more from a family history point of view as apposed to a WW2 perspective.
You see my grandmother Eva Mary Geeson was Michaels wife. As far as I can see they saw very little of each other during there brief marriage and had no children. Eva eventually married again and had my mother. She use to show me pictures of Michael but never really spoke about him. But I do know that she never stopped loving him and never really got over his death. All I have are a couple of photos of them together and an engagement ring. I have tried to trace his family but his sister moved down south many years ago and believe she may have passed away too.
Back in 2011 we visited Normandy and found his grave in Brazenville. It was a very emotional visit for me.
I would greatly appreciate any information anyone has about Michael. I don't really know how to get his records etc. any advise, comments, pointers would be greatly received.

 

Pleased to hear from you. When did they get married? I'll take a look in the nominal roll and see if I can estimate when he jined the regiment..

R

 

England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005
Name: Michael Picker
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1942
Registration district: Nottingham
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Spouse: Eva M Geeson
Volume Number: 7b
Page Number: 856

TD

 

One online record is on the CWGC site .. see Casualty

The inscription on his headstone which you have seen shows that she felt her loss

 

Their mariage in 1942 indicates that he was not with the regiment at that time as they were in North Africa. His service record will give datails of his military service ... information on how to apply is online at Requests for personal data and service records: a detailed guide - GOV.UK

Robin

 

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the replies. Yesterday I ordered Michaels birth certificate as I don't have his exact date. Once that arrives I will send off for his service records. Hopefully then I will have a better idea of where he was. I'm not sure if he was already enlisted when he got married or not? When my Nan passed away in 1988 my parents sent everything to his sister, and that was it really, my mother didn't keep the address, so I have nothing but a name to go on.
When I first read the inscription on the grave I cried buckets. It was very emotional. I have been to visit a couple of times over the years. Plan on visiting again at some point in the next couple of years. I'm going to take a photo of Michael and Eva and place it in the book.
I believe the last letter she received was telling her he was wounded but ok. But how accurate that is I don't know. My Dad said that's what it said. The telegram reporting his death was not found among the letters and correspondence
My Nan was 1 of two sisters and they were both widowed young in different ways. Edna's husband died of a heart attack when she was 38, they had no children. She never remarried, and passed away aged 87 in 2006. Eva remarried 7 years after Michaels death and had my Mum 5 years later. My Mum was an only child. Eva died of breast Cancer in 1988.
I've been reading a bit of Z location but I'm finding it hard work. Am I correct in saying that the 4th Survey was integrated with XXX corps?
What is the significance of the 111 at the beginning of his service number?
Michael was a gunner, please forgive my ignorance in such matters but what would that have meant?
So many questions, I do apologies.
Kind regards
Rachel

 

Rachel -
Firstly Summer 1942 would likely be the time when Michael was posted to the 4th Durham as they lost a Battery in the fall of Tobruk and had to rapidly rebuild the regiment. This meant bringing in trained men from various other regiments in the RA. His service number was simply a serial number within the Royal Artillery - but batches of numbers were allocated to recruiting centres so men who joined in the same period would have numbers close together.

Gunner is the RA rank equivalent to private. Many of the men in the survey regiments had special skills and this will be in his service record.

I've looked at a couple of first hand memoirs of Normandy and found very little for the month of June apart from tales of landing on the beach.

26 June was however a difficult time as they were involved in the battle for Tilly - may be worth reading the Tilly sur Sueilles thread on WW2talk.

Robin

 

Rachel
Re Service numbers...... I have found several triple one men joining the regiment in September 1942. Two are 1119674 1119971 bracketing Michaels number.

Re XXX Corps in Normandy The 4th Durham Survey Regiment was initially allocated to 50 Division but is rarely listed under readily available Orders of Battle. This is because they often served in smaller units with a variety of RA formations according to the need for their specialist skills. My father in law was BQMS of 48 Battery at this time and was in the battlle for Tilly sur Sueilles. I've checked his diary for June 1944 - no entries of significance

 

Thank you so much for your replies they have been very helpful. I should receive the birth certificate in about a month. I will then request his service records.
I don't think Michael made it to Tilly, as I understand it he died of septicaemia from a wound, and had time to write to Eva before passing away on the 27th June.
Once I have got the records I will let you know.
Thank you again for you help.
Rachel

 

Tilly changed hands sevral times before the 27th and the regiemnt seems to have been under fire several times so this fits.

Survey in the Royal Artillery had a techinical roll but some men were at times in Observation Posts in the front line.
The organisation structure in 1944 is detailed online at
Organisation of a Survey Regiment 1944

This was the 'standard' structure ... naturally in live warfare more pragmatic staffing was needed at times.

Robin