LST-159

Discussion in 'The War at Sea' started by Tracy Harris, Aug 6, 2018.

  1. Tracy Harris

    Tracy Harris Member

    No worries - I appreciate your efforts!
     
  2. Tracy Harris

    Tracy Harris Member

    Thanks Danny!
     
  3. Tracy Harris

    Tracy Harris Member

    Ha Ha - that signal certainly supports Jim's recollection of 'glorious cock-ups'!
     
  4. Tracy Harris

    Tracy Harris Member

    What I'm getting from comparing different bits of information is a bit of confusion btw LCA and LCP(R). It seems that the former was British made and the latter US made, but to my novice eyes it seems that they were pretty similar and performed similar tasks. Could an LCP (R) loaded onto a ship from the US that unexpectedly finds itself in the Med with a mish-mash crew have been mistaken in the chaos for an LCA? Or just called an LCA because that's what they were familiar with? Or just referred to as an LCA in the same way as it seems that German tanks were referred to generically as 'Tigers' ? Jim was a very green 18 year old and in the heat and chaos of war it seems that he may not have known - or indeed cared - exactly what type of landing craft it was and then, looking back many years later have assumed it was an LCA. I'm definitely persuaded by the specificity of Danny's info that LST-159 was carrying an LCPR
     
  5. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    I would think LCA was being used as a generic name for small landing craft. I am pretty sure that LST davits could not carry LCA. The US LST carried LCVP but LCP(L) and LCP(R) were close relations, being earlier versions. While they could be used as landing craft they were more often used on LSTs as ships boats, lifeboats and tenders.

    Mike
     
  6. Tracy Harris

    Tracy Harris Member


    Mike, I have a question...
    I am just beginning to decipher all of the abbreviations on the loading list that Michel Sabarly kindly posted and I'm getting on OK so far but watch this space! My question is that you obviously established that LST159 was carrying 2 LCP(L) or LCP(R), but on this list these aren't mentioned - just 2 DUKWs. Now, I can see that the date of this list was 2 May 44 with Amendt No.1 of 11 May 44, so in the following weeks there was obviously plenty of scope for change - do you have access to a later one?
    Tracy
     
  7. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Tracy,

    I will check but I am pretty sure that LST 159 had four sets of davits. Usually four LCP would be carried. Michel's list is an army loading table and the two DUKW are from a RASC DUKW company. These were launched and remained to work on the beaches. There will be two LCP as part of the ships equipment as well.

    As far as planning in concerned 11 May was very late. Very few changes were made after that time.

    Mike
     
  8. As far as I know, no LST(2) had four davits. They had either two or six davits, never four.

    As Mike said, LCP(R), LCP(L) or other small craft on an LST were normally used as shipboats or tenders, not as assault craft, if only because LST were intended to carry vehicles and not assault troops.

    LST 159 carrying two DUKWs on its davits on D Day means that her LCP(R) 971 was either left behind in the UK or simply lashed somewhere on her deck, ready to be used as shipboat again once the DUKWs had been launched.

    Michel
     
  9. Tracy Harris

    Tracy Harris Member


    Thanks...and since then, another question! What do the numbers in brackets mean e.g. in 27 Cdn Armrd Rgt (1044/1)?
     
  10. Tracy Harris

    Tracy Harris Member

    Thanks Michel
     
  11. Tracy,

    As I indicated in my post, "numbers within parentheses are the Mobilisation Serial Number of the Unit", that is, a unique serial number allocated to each Allied unit being shipped overseas. The "/1" suffix indicates a Canadian unit.

    This number was part of the shipping or embarkation code applied to vehicles in order to facilitate loading, and comes very handy when trying to identify the unit of a vehicle on which only the shipping markings are visible.

    Michel
     
  12. And please excuse all the abbreviations, I should have transcribed the Landing Table with the full names :blush:
    Will try and do that later...

    Michel
     
  13. Following is the transcription of the Landing Table entry for Serial 1741 as per my post #3 above but with all the military abbreviations replaced with their full spelling:

    For Operation NEPTUNE, Landing Ship Tank 159 was in 4 Landing Ship Tank Mark 2 Flotilla under Assault Group " J " 3.

    Following is the load (Landing Table Index Number 1741) that she was planned to carry on D Day as part of (Sailing) Group 332, (Assault) Group " J " 1 (G.J.1), Naval Force " J " (numbers within parentheses are the Mobilisation Serial Number of the Unit):

    Ship Ready to Beach H + 4 hours, NAN Sector - Offloaded by Rhino Ferry in Tow

    TANK DECK

    27 Canadian Armoured Regiment (1044/1) - 20 men with 3x Sherman Tank Mark III, 1x 3 Ton Lorry Stores
    Headquarters 2 Canadian Armoured Brigade (940/1) - 10 men with 2x Sherman Tank Mark III
    2 Canadian Armoured Brigade Signals Squadron (965/1) - 8 men with 1x M14
    105 Anti-tank Battery (Self Propelled) 3 Canadian Anti-tank Regiment (708/1) - 50 men with 8x M10 & 8 Motorcycle loaded, 2x 3 Ton Lorry General Service
    Headquarters Royal Canadian Artillery 3 Canadian Infantry Division (704/1) - 33 men with 1x 3 Ton Office, 1x 3 Ton Lorry General Service & 3 Motorcycle loaded, 1x 15cwt Fitted For Wireless, 3x Car 5cwt
    The North Nova Scotia Highlanders (732/1) - 2 men with 1x 3 Ton Lorry General Service
    The Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders (752/1) - 4 men with 1x 3 Ton Lorry General Service
    The Highland Light Infantry of Canada (754/1) - 5 men with 1x 3 Ton General Service
    “C” Company The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa (733/1) - 4 men with 1x 3 Ton Lorry General Service
    “H” Section Signals (726/1) - 8 men with 1x M14, 1x 15cwt Armoured
    Detachment 11 Multi Channel Section (38346) - 3 men with 1x 15cwt General Service or Wireless Telegraphy, 2 Motorcycle loose
    102 Corps Provost Company (2179) - 17 men with 1x 15cwt General Service, 1x Car 5cwt, 12 Motorcycle loose
    Counter-battery Officer 1 Corps Detachment (36638) - 4 men with 1x Car 4 Seater Humber
    966 Inland Water Transport Company - 15 marching parties, 1 man with 1x Tractor Class II
    Detachment 267 Pioneer Company - 9 marching parties
    “D” Section 4 Canadian Provost Company (773/1) - 1 man with 1x Car 5cwt & 1 Motorcycle loaded
    The Inns of Court Regiment (29963) - 2 men with 1x Car 5cwt
    Headquarters 9 Canadian Infantry Brigade (750/1) - 1 man - Padre for Highland Light Infantry rides in General Service Lorry
    3 Canadian Infantry Division Signals (726/1) - 3 men with 1x Car 5cwt & 1 Airborne Trailer
    Contact Detachment (1102/1) - 1 man with 1x Car 5cwt

    UPPER DECK

    105 Anti-tank Battery (Self Propelled) 3 Canadian Anti-tank Regiment (Unit nominated to detail Officer Commanding Craft) - 12 men with 2x 15cwt Battery Charger, 2x Carrier Universal
    The North Nova Scotia Highlanders (732/1) - 8 men with 3x 3 Ton Lorry General Service
    102 Sub Area Beach (36660) - 2 marching parties, 3 men with 1x Car 5cwt
    Commander Royal Engineers General Headquarters Troops - 4 men with 1x Car 5cwt & 1 Motorcycle loaded
    102 Sub Area Signals Section (39097) - 18 men with 3x Car 5cwt, 1x 15cwt General Service & 3 Motorcycle loaded
    “A” Squadron Phantom (3814) - 7 men with 1x White Scout Car, 1x Car 5cwt, 1x Trailer 10cwt
    The Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders (752/1) - 12 men with 3x 3 Ton Lorry General Service
    1 Corps Signals - 3 marching parties, 15 men with 2x M14 & 1 Handcart loaded, 1x Car 5cwt, 1x Trailer 10cwt
    The Highland Light Infantry of Canada (754/1) - 12 men with 3x 3 Ton Lorry General Service
    27 Canadian Armoured Regiment (1044/1) - 12 men with 4x 3 Ton Lorry General Service
    777 Corps Headquarters Car Company (38844) - 22 men with 5x Cars 5cwt, 1x 3 Ton Lorry General Service
    Canadian Public Relations Services (2351/1) - 4 men with 1x Car 5cwt
    Headquarters 3 Canadian Infantry Division (700/1) - 6 men with 2x Car 5cwt
    Tentacle Air Support Signals Unit for 1 Corps - 2 men with 1x Car 5cwt
    Royal Canadian Army Service Corps for 3 Canadian Infantry Division (760/1) - 4 Trailers 5cwt (To be towed ashore by Vehicles detailed by Officer Commanding Craft)
    51 Royal Air Force Balloon Unit - 2 marching parties & 1 Balloon

    ON DAVITS

    633 DUKW Platoon (Medical) (35863) - 3 men with 1x DUKW
    199 General Transport Company (33210) - 3 men with 1x DUKW

    ON RHINO FERRY

    199 General Transport Company (33210) - 9 men with 3x DUKW

    Source: Landing Table dated 2 May 44 with Amendment No.1 of 11 May 1944.

    Note: "105 Anti-tank Battery (Self Propelled) 3 Canadian Anti-tank Regiment" should really read "105 (Composite) Anti-tank Battery (Self Propelled)...", because for the assault all, and only, sixteen 3-inch M10 Guns of 3 Canadian Anti-tank Regiment were grouped under 105 Battery command (four each from “C” Troop 4 Battery, “F” Troop 52 Battery, “I” Troop 94 Battery & “L” Troop 105 Battery), while the 6-pounder Anti-tank guns were regrouped into other Composite Batteries.

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2018
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  14. Tracy Harris

    Tracy Harris Member

    Thank you - some of them I had a good stab at, but several had me totally stumped!
     
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  17. Tracy Harris

    Tracy Harris Member

    I'm really hoping to visit the new exhibition at Portsmouth - a bit difficult as I live in Spain at the moment - is there a lot of info about LSTs?
     
  18. I do not know whether the exhibitions show much about LSTs, not having visited this Museum (beg your pardon, this "Story") myself yet.
    However, since it inherited the archives of the now defunct LST and Landing Craft Association, exploring their files should yield some nice gems.

    One can still see, and sometimes even visit, surviving LSTs, but this involves travelling even farther :D:
    Landing Ship, Tank - Wikipedia

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
  19. Tracy Harris

    Tracy Harris Member

     
  20. Tracy Harris

    Tracy Harris Member


    FURTHER TO THE ABOVE
    Having now delved deeper and gained a greater understanding of what was going on, I now believe that Jim may have been part of an LCA flotilla on D-Day, not crossing on LST159 at all, even though he was still assigned to that ship. It seems certain that he was on Juno beach BEFORE the LST’s came in, that he was originally due to take ‘frogmen’ on shore before the landings actually commenced but was unable to do so due to the weather. Nevertheless he was still on Juno beach very early on in the proceedings. He returned to London late June 1944 and was given 10 days leave when his mother was killed by one of the first V1s, before going to France, Belgium and Holland. Does that sound possible? All comments welcome!

    (have his service record, but minimal info and barely legible!)
     

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