Help with a Title / Job in German army & what regiment likely to be a part of

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by skiptotheend, Feb 26, 2021.

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  1. skiptotheend

    skiptotheend Member

    Hello,

    I have been researching my family history (in general) and a side of my family were german, on ancestry I didn't find much apart from address books for their area and a marriage certificate.

    This marriage certificate lead me down a rabbit hole where I found out the man had been killed in Lieberose Schloss in March 1945... obviously this is towards the end of the war and probably he was part of the last defence before the battle for Berlin...

    So first question:
    Does anyone know what regiment/armies would be holding the schloss at this point (it says he died in the wehrmacht - so presume looking at a wehrmacht regiment?) - I haven't found much in regards to this when I looked.


    Second question: it gives his role as: Buchhalter Wachtmeister which seems to be an Accountant non commissioned officer - Does anyone have any clue what this role would likely be doing? I have no reference of what accountants would be doing in the army

    Much appreciated for any help
     
  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    I've edited German into the thread title, it's more likely to attract those with an interest & that can help you.
     
  3. MarkN

    MarkN Banned

    Seems to have been the HQ of an SS concentration camp.

    Lieberose
     
  4. Alex1975uk

    Alex1975uk Well-Known Member

  5. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Wachtmeister corresponds to the rank of sergeant in artillery or cavalry.
    Alternatively, there was also the title of Wachtmeister in the police.

    The concentration camp in Jamlitz was dissolved on 2 February 1945 and the approximately 200 prisoners were sent to Sachsenhausen.

    The military training area of the Waffen-SS "Kurmark" was also located near Jamlitz/Lieberose.
    Since the beginning of March 1945, the staff of the 36th SS Waffen-GrenDiv. and possibly also the staff of the 35th SS-Polizei-GrenDiv. were located there.

    In this respect, there is the possibility that the person sought was in the latter Division while retaining his police rank.
    The job of an accountant would also fit the staff work in this context
     
  6. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Buchalter...bookkeeping...accountancy
    Wachtmeister in this designation would mean accountancy team leader,ie head.

    From that I would think he was responsible for accounts of the SS unit at Lieberose which was a satellite of Sachenhausen. There is no surprises what the role was... accounting for all the money that had been raised from Polish and Hungarian Jews who were held here.

    In early February 1945 there was an evacuation of the camp but 1300 inmates were left behind. Their fate was sealed with a telex from the Sachenhausen Commandant, it is reported, and a killing spree was enacted by the SS. It was reported to be one of the largest massacres at virtually the end of the war. It would appear that German Kapos featured in killings which took place in such camps.

    Post being complied as Itdan's post.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  7. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    That may be, and that was my first thought, too. Only a few details make me wonder

    The concentration camp in Jamlitz was dissolved on 2 February 1945
    Exactly 1342 sick people and those unfit for transport were left behind by the SS on site. Probably none of them survived. They were mostly Hungarian Jews who were murdered by the SS guards between 2 and 4 February 1945. The bodies were taken to the Staakow gravel pit. Prisoners had to bury the dead, afterwards they were also murdered.

    In the course of the evacuation at the beginning of February, the entire administration will have left as well.
    Especially because the Red Army was practically on the doorstep and camp personnel were not necessarily known for excessive bravery.
    What was he still doing in Lieberose in March?

    And as already mentioned, the title Wachtmeister was not an SS rank. It only existed in the police, artillery and cavalry.
    If he had changed to the SS as part of the so-called "rank adjustment", he would have had the rank of SS-Sturmmann or SS-Rottenführer.
     
  8. MarkN

    MarkN Banned

    The Red Army did't get there until the latter part of April, so he doesn't appear to have been on the frontline when he died irrespective of his rank or title.
     
  9. MarkN

    MarkN Banned

    In those days the SS kept ledgers and needed bookkeepers for more gruesome tasks than keeping track of the number of Marks incoming and outgoing.
     
  10. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    skiptotheend likes this.
  11. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Out of curiosity: Why are some here apparently so sure that the person they are looking for belonged to the administration of a concentration camp?
    And the title Wachtmeister - I repeat for the 3rd time, was not an SS rank, but either police, artillery or cavalry.

    Therefore, I would rather wait and see whether the questioner provides further information about the person.
     
  12. MarkN

    MarkN Banned

    Who knows exactly what this chap was doing in March.

    But we do know this was not the front line and that location was noted for 2 things: an SS run forced labour camp and a huge SS training depot.

    As you wrote, the units there in March were
    What happened to the camp staff when it closed its doors and march the prisoners to their death? Did they march off too or did they get drafted into one of the numerous SS units being patched together as a last ditch effort?

    Who knows?
     
  13. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    And what do we know?

    Lieberose Schloss was a military hospital at that time. Heavy fighting has been taking place in and around Guben since 28 February - just 30 km away.
    The concentration camp was closed at the beginning of February.

    Personally, I have no problem at all with the fact that even 90-year-olds are condemned for their participation in the concentration camp system: serves them right!
    But before explaining to someone that one of his ancestors plundered prisoners in a concentration camp, one should perhaps take the trouble to look at the circumstances in a differentiated way....
    I will not get involved any further here
     
  14. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Itdan
    I would agree with the SS ranks but could the accountancy role be undertaken by any Wehrmacht person based there although I would agree that to some extent the SS was a closed shop. If the person was a Wehrmacht serviceman, what was he doing in Lieberose, a satellite of Sachenhausen, a principal KL?. Was Lieberose Schloss a different location to the satellite KL?

    Mark
    As regards the role of the bookkeeping/accountancy, the duties were to cover all revenue streams on the camp and present the accounts of the camp's operation with a return as instructed. The SS ran many businesses using slave labour and to this end, Himmler with his KL enterprises had a free hand, Anyone carrying out this accountancy role, although at first might assess it as a minor role would be mistaken....it was an important link in the SS terror machine as reflected by some recently found guilty of such a role in the past at KLs.

    It was an important role in a the paper chain of revenue and booty which led to the SS Max Heiliger Deposit Account, a cover name for the account which was for revenue derived from SS commercial activities carried out by slave labour, cash and booty collected from concentration and extermination camps victims. The list of the types of booty taken from victims is endless.

    The vaults of the Reichbank were filled to the brim with this macabre booty and what is more, Funk, the President of the Reichbank was aware of the source the deposits.

    What did the SS camp personnel do? They tried to put distance between themselves and the scene of their crimes at Lieberose in the chaos that followed the three day slaughter of the inmates. They were fearful of the oncoming Red Army...fearful of retribution and that came after they volunteered for the killing spree. It is recorded that one sentry exclaimed "Come on, let's go We're going Jew shooting, and will get some schnapps for"

    A good insight to Himmler's KL reign is Nikolaus Wachsmann's A History of the NAZI Concentration Camps.
     
  15. skiptotheend

    skiptotheend Member

    Much appreciated for all the replies, first to note I have applied to get his war records (however as we know that could take some time)

    At first I thought the obvious link was with the camp there, but the more I've read around it I am more unsure. From what I can tell the Lieberose camp was outside of the town, whilst the schloss is bang in the centre. As Itdan stated the timing doesn't marry up to some degree. And the stating clearly of wehrmacht.

    To give some context, on ancestry I can follow him via the residency books for towns, where as a young man he was a bank clerk, at 31 he was an accountant, and at 36 he was a 'Prokurist' which seems to be an senior accountancy role more prevalent in germany.

    "Prokurist / the concept of the procurator is still alive and well, reshaped to meet the requirements of modern business throughout Germany. Prokura, the explicit authorisation given to selected senior managers or directors within a company"

    However at the age of 36 (1940) him being mentioned in the address books goes dead - So I would hazard a guess this is around the time when he was called up. The age alone doesn't smack of someone eager to join the SS and more like a call-up (but again I am unsure if the SS also did call ups?)

    The next mention (which I have attached) is a book of deaths. Which states most of the information I have so far around his military field. He died in March 1945 aged 40. The book of deaths was created in 1946, and the exact phrasing was "der buchhalter, wachmeister <name of invidual>". (see attached). I am now wondering if it was stating civilian role & his role within the war? However I didn't know enough about German Military Roles/Ranks to understand if it was all one title or seperate roles.

    From what Itdan posted it doesn't sound like they are...


    Ah interesting thank you for this tidbit! This is the sort of information, on some of the information (Attached) it says he died of his wounds, so the hospital seems to fit with this. I presumed the schloss played *some* role but I couldn't seem to find any information of what that role was.

    It does state quite clearly "wehrmacht" rather than SS etc which also makes me think he wasn't necessarily associated to the camp there. I have uploaded the information I have around his death (I blacked out some names as there are people still alive associated to the person in question. There is also a note on the marriage documentation in handwriting I can't quite make out, but it roughly looks like its stating his death as per the other document.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. skiptotheend

    skiptotheend Member

    Your own site states: "Lieberose was to be expanded into a garrison town in the Third Reich. The place had to suffer for these plans, because it became a target for American bombers and Russian units. The so-called city church located directly behind the town hall, which is still a memorial as a ruin, was destroyed. The castle was also badly damaged in the area of the knight's hall."

    So it sounds like there was a wider military role then than just SS
     
  17. MarkN

    MarkN Banned

    The garrison town that is mentionned refers to Truppenübungsplatz der Waffen-SS "Kurmark".

    The SS concentration/labour camp was created to house the slave labour brought in to build the SS training camp. A large chunk of the land being acquired from Graf Schulenberg resident in Schloss Lieberose.

    The SS concentration/labour camp was located next to Liberose railway station in what is now called Jamlitz. The inmates of the camp were used not just to build the SS military installation but also as far afield as factories in Berlin. After the war the Soviets took over the camp and used it to intern Nazi and other prisoners they considered undesirable.

    The SS concentration/labour camp was indeed closed at the beginning of February. The SS training camp was not.

    You asked: Does anyone know what regiment/armies would be holding the schloss at this point
    The answer is the entire area was run by the SS.
    The answer also includes the detail that it was not on the front line on 7 March 1944. The OKH situation map identifying the location of fighting units depicts nothing in Liberose or within 20+km. In otherwords, it would have been under the control of the nearest rear unit, in otherwords, the SS.

    You asked for help in finding the history behind a relative. From the meagre scraps you have presented, little concrete or specific can be given. But the two letters SS feature very prominently in everything connected with the area at the time. That is an inescapable truth. You may not like the taste of the truth. You may wish to do your best to deny that truth.

    What exactly your relative got up to is impossible to tell from what you have presented here.

    The document you posted reads to me that Buchalter is his (peacetime) profession rather than his military position/role. It may well be a complete red herring when trying to ascertain what he was doing in the military in the days leading up to his death. The reference to Wehrmacht reads to me as a generic reference to him being in uniform rather than being a civilian.
     
  18. skiptotheend

    skiptotheend Member

    OK. Thank you for your aggressive reply, I am merely asking questions. The reason for "meagre scraps" because there truly isn't much information bar one piece of paper, a piece of paper i don't have as much knowledge on when compared to English records, hence why I don't have much, I was asking for some help.

    Apologies if you thought I was being aggressive in my comment, I was purely questioning. Much appreciated for your time. Regards.
     
  19. MarkN

    MarkN Banned

    Aggressive? No.

    Direct? Yes.

    History is what history is. We can't change history if we don't like it.

    The answer to your first question is simple. SS.

    You say you couldn't find much yourself but the internet has plenty on the SS in the area, the concentration camp and the training ground. How is it that you couldn't find it?

    The answer to your second question would seem to be either staring you in the face or be a complete red herring?

    If he was an accountant in the forces, he'd be behind the lines working with book ledgers. Alternatively, buchhalter is a red herring about what he was doing at the time and refers to his peacetime profession. Wachtmeister is a rank with a handful of possibilities. It does not rule out the SS as there were plenty of Wachtmeisters in the SS including many as concentration camp guards.

    The quantity of information you have presented here is meagre. That's not a criticism, it's a fact. It's a fact that handicaps your research and severely limits the help you can get/expect from others.
     
  20. MarkN

    MarkN Banned

    Sadly, due to the obsession by some with the SS, their (personnel) records are some of the most easily available on the internet.

    I don't know exactly what is out there as it doesn't interest me. But if you want to learn more about your relation, that could be the best place to direct your efforts given what little data you have to start with.
     

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