MOD ALREADY TRANSFERRING WW2 SERVICE FILES TO UK NATIONAL ARCHIVES 2021

Well we are now 2 days over the 20 working days and no response

Ah well

 

Finally got the records today, wow, 40 pages, however 14 pages are redacted under FOI until 2033

Awful lot of info which was a surprise, lots of detentions though for insubordination and going awol for a couple of days at a time, measured by the minute

 

Thank you for the update on your application. From recent posts on the forum, it looks as though much more is being released in terms of content and quantity than say ten years ago.

 

Compared to what I received from my Uncles, which was 3 pages of basically nothing, it is amazing, and much like what we find with WW1 Service Records, for those that survived, so in all this would have been 54 pages

Steve

 

Greetings all:
My application was sent in early March. A stern silence ensued. Finally, in June, I discovered the previously suspended enquiries phone line was open again, so rang them up and was surprised when a package arrived in the post a few days later! The contents were useful but left mysterious gaps, such as no word that I could spot about promotion to L/Cpl, and TOS but no SOS when transferred. There wasn't as much as I'd hoped either: 4 pages of the Service & Casualty form, which had the bulk of the information, the enlistment form and statement of services which didn't add much to the rest. Also, I got two copies of one set of forms which seemed to be because a tiny margin at bottom had been missed when reproduced. I've no idea if there should or could have been anything else. Any opinions please?

I'm new on here (joined last year but only just 'active' and have posted my enquiries in the 'Searching for Someone...' thread. The person I'm looking for help with is William Cliftlands (just on the off chance that someone reading this page has heard of him!).

Good luck everyone. It's a really good day once those forms finally do arrive.

Rookie

 

Welcome. Yes that's about it what you've received.
Have a look at my dad's records do yours look similar?
Ernest Illingworth, Army Records | WW2Talk

Lesley

 

Rookie, best to keep everything on one post, there is one for William Cliftlands here:
William Cliftlands (Gordons; 1 Black Watch (Tyneside Scottish); 5th Black Watch, Lincolns, Norfolks

 

Mine was similar but 54 pages

 

Hi all,
Yes Lesley, mine do look very similar, so good to know I'm not missing anything. I'm very envious of Steve's 54 pages. I've got about 12, I'd say.

Tony56: Thanks for your message too. You identified my thread. What I posted here was meant as a contribution to the discussion on wait times for service records, but I did mention the thread here, I guess it was a hijack?!! Sorry about that if doing so was inappropriate: I thought it harmless to mention it. Lesson learned!
Rookie

 

The minutes of the User Advisory Group Meeting held on 6th September 2022:

https://cdn.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/user-advisory-group-minutes-2022-september.pdf.pdf


"
5.
Ministry of Defence Service Personnel Records Transfer Project (WB)

Head of Military Records provided the group with an overview of the MoD Services Records Transfer to The National Archives which is estimated to be around 12million relating to the Army, Royal Navy & RAF which is to run until 2027. The entire collection of records is equivalent to at least 22 years' worth of annual accessioned material.
WB informed the group that 3 million records have been transferred so far which are being prepared for public access. It was noted that 150,000 service records had been released on Discovery since April 2022.
WB showed the group an illustration of what the service record would look like and informed them of the scope of the records where it would cover an individual’s service where there is a discharge service date prior to 31 December 1963 (end of National Service). It included 500,000 FWW service records (those who continued to serve after 1920) and selected records from Egypt, Cyprus, Kenya, Palestine, Mauritius and East Africa.
WB informed the group that the first records collated were Army Other Ranks discharges 1921 – 1939, REME Other Ranks and Bournemouth Other Ranks. Other records transferred were from the East African ATS (Auxiliary Territorial Service) and QAIMS (Queen Alexandra’s Imperial Military Nursing Service), Aden Pioneer Corps, and Libyan Arab Force

Q.
The majority of the records are from the Second World War.
What was oldest record that falls under the category of ‘women in the army’? (NC)
A.
First World War 1914 (WB)

Q.
Are there records for Cromwell’s army (NC)
A.
There are no central service record for Cromwell’s Army you would need to go to various places for this.

Q.
Is medical history redacted (NC)
A.
Medical information is redacted until 115 years after birth (WB)

Q.
What is happening with the home guard records?
A.
These records are still with the ‘Ministry of Defence’ and TNA are in the process of working out the best way to provide access to these.

Q.
After the army records are transferred what records will be transferred next? (SM)
A.
Current thinking is that the RAF records will be next and Royal Navy records would follow within the lifecycle of the project. (WB)"

 

Thanks for posting this Papiermache, I find navigating the NA website to find this sort of information rather difficult, plus I usually end up with more questions than answers when I do find something. Here are some of my questions.

What I originally understood was that records would be released in order of service number/date of eliistment. However it seems that the service records pre WW2 are being processed by the military unit (eg REME) before release onto Discovery. I don't understand why they are grouped that way when each service number is unique? Or are service records being transferred by military unit and for some reason pre-war service records are being processed first?

That 3 million records have been transferred suggests to me, most if not all pre-WW2 records could have been transferred to the NA if done by date of elistment? However that only 150,000 or 5% of these records have been made available in 6 months doesn't look too promising. Hopefully the process will pick up its pace.

My father did his 7 years under colours pre WW2 before being transferred to the Reserve, after call up in WW2 he was within three months transferred to another regiment. I am assuming/hoping that his service record would tied by his service number to his pre-war regiment and released as a pre-WW2 service record? I have a sneaking suspicion I might be wrong on this.

 

Welcome to the forum, Dave. There are certainly more questions than answers, and I have not been to Kew since November 2019, so rely on the internet. So far as personal experience of obtaining service records is concerned, my wife applied for her parents' records during the summer from the MOD and received them within about two months, having sent cheques and forms by post. They were both hostilities only.

There are plenty of experts here who can advise you on the best course for you: send off the forms to the MOD, ( there may be a different method of payment now.)

I find the Kew website and web archive to be helpful, except that publication of minutes of the main "committees" is often delayed by many months. In the case of the September User Advisory Group minutes I checked throughout September, October, November, etc., and I do not know when in this month they pressed "play."

To view links to committees you navigate to the bottom of the Kew "calling page" and find this:



Go to the A-Z index.

Then look for Advisory Council, Directors, Non-Executive Directors, and then my favourite screenshot:



The User Forum is defunct, but old minutes of meetings, which anybody visiting Kew could attend, can be found on the UK Government Web Archive.

There is another source of information which often gives more information than any of the Committees.

Contracts Finder

The easiest way is to search by the Kew postcode.

Last year it came up with a tender document which outlined future plans, but I do not know whether a contract was actually awarded. This is a plain text version of one of the tender documents ( I have edited out the email addresses )

" Description

The National Archives is a non-ministerial government department and part of the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. As the official archive and publisher for the UK government, and England and Wales we are the guardians of some of the UK's most iconic national documents, dating back over 1,000 years. Our role is to collect and secure the future of the government record, both digital and physical, to preserve it for generations to come, and to make it as accessible and available as possible.
The National Archives is seeking expressions of interest for the digitisation, licensing and publication of the MOD Service Records, collations11005,11009,11010 and11011. The project will be to digitise, transcribe and publish online the initial four collations of the MOD Service Records. The contract award will include a commercial licence to publish the images online, (and associated transcription data produced by the project) and to undertake all the required processes to complete this (including such activities as digital image capture and transcription of data, to allow for meaningful searches of the records’ online publication), for which TNA will expect a commercial return
To demonstrate eligibility to be considered for this tender, potential Suppliers must demonstrate:
a. Experience of managing and completing large scale digitisation projects of heritage material
b. Online publication of heritage material specifically for use by the Family History Market
c. Viable commercial models that return an income stream to licensor partners
The National Archives will shortlist a maximum of five potential suppliers to be invited to tender, subsequent to the evaluation of the Standard Selection Questionnaires received.
Please submit your completed Standard Selection Questionnaire by: 17:00 (UK time) on Wednesday 15 December, 2021.

Background on the MOD Service Records, collations 11005, 11009, 11010 and 11011.
Over the next decade, The National Archives will accession approximately 9.6 million service personnel records in 74 collations. The records that make up this collection cover service in the British Army, Royal Navy, Royal Air Force and foreign regiments, where the individual has a discharge date prior to 31 December 1963; however, predominantly the records cover the period from 1921 to the end of the Second World War.
This tender is for the initial four collations only:
• 11005: (Army) Other Ranks Service Records, 1921-1939
• 11009: (Army) Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers Other Ranks Service
Records
• 11010: (Army) P59 & Over Age Other Ranks Service Records
• 11011: (Army) Bournemouth Over Age Other Ranks Service Records
Combined, the above collations amount to approximately 31% of the entire MOD Service Records. The remaining 70 collations (approx. 61%) will be subject to further National Archives tenders over the coming decade and beyond.
Although not formally arranged as such, each service record comprises at least one, or a combination of, the following:
• Attestation papers, Statements of Service and other forms relating to enlistment and service.
o Digitising at least one of these forms is mandatory
• Forms not directly relating to enlistment and service, excluding medical or conduct forms (see below); these include miscellaneous paperwork such as reports, personal letters, special leave applications and handwritten notes.
o Digitisation optional
• Medical or conduct forms and other potentially sensitive paperwork.
o Digitisation prohibited Closure status
For the purposes of this digitisation and publication tender:
• Attestation papers, Statements of Service and other forms relating to service and enlistment may be published after 100 years has elapsed from the date of birth of the data subject;
• Forms and miscellaneous paperwork not directly related to enlistment and service, excluding medical or conduct forms (see below), may be published after 100 years has elapsed from the date of birth of the data subject;
• Digitisation and publication of medical or conduct forms and other potentially sensitive paperwork is prohibited.

Further conditions will apply on redaction of data which may breach the Data Protection Act 2018 and UKGDPR.
Expression of Interest Timeline
Description
Date
1
Deadline for Expressions of Interest submissions
5pm UK time,
15 December 2021
2
Successful EoI’s informed. Invitation to Tender, published to shortlisted suppliers.

7 January 2022
Indicative procurement timeline
Description

Date
1
Timebox for potential suppliers to view MOD Service Records
17-21 January 2022
2
Timebox for potential suppliers to meet with TNA to test ideas, to negotiate, and to refine their Proposals
14-18 February 2022
3
Deadline for potential suppliers to submit clarification questions
5pm UK time, 4 March 2022
4
Deadline for potential suppliers to submit their responses

5pm UK time, 14 April 2022
5
TNA to evaluate responses and to identify winning bidder
6 May 2022
6
Standstill period ends "

The above plans may have changed, and I cannot find any more tender documents for other "collations."

The November Directors or Executive team meeting had this:

"8. Storage
8.1. DA joined the meeting to introduce the item. The Ministry of Defence Service Personnel records and the future Parliamentary Archive records would substantially increase demand for storage space going forward and proposed reviewing storage needs.
8.2. ET discussed the proposal.
8.3. Decision: ET approved the proposal to extend the contract for additional records with Deepstore by 50% and enter into a new contract for the remaining capacity."

Good hunting!

John

 

MOD service personnel records now available (update) - The National Archives


"MOD service personnel records now available (update)

Friday 25 November 2022
Earlier this year, we announced that the first Ministry of Defence (MOD) service personnel records were on our catalogue and available to order. We have continued to upload various series and you can now search our catalogue, Discovery, to find out which records are available.

Currently, documents can be viewed when ordered in four days in advance which allows us to ensure the preparation of the records before viewing. It also allows us to monitor usage and popularity which in turn will enable us to react to researcher requirements.

If you believe that we have a service record you are looking for but it has not yet been made available, you can request access either by making a Freedom of Information (FOI) request or a Subject Access Request.
There are various ways to request access dependent on who you are looking for and whether they are still alive or have passed away:

Request your own Ministry of Defence personnel record or on behalf of a living data subject
Request a FOI paid search of Ministry of Defence personnel records where the individual is presumed deceased
Request closed Ministry of Defence personnel records where the individual is presumed living
More advice and information on how to access records can be found in the FAQs (PDF, 0.1 MB) and in our updated research guide, British Army soldiers in service after 1918.

Tags: ministry of defence, MOD, personnel records"

 

I placed an FOI request for a RASC KIA service record through TNA rather than through MoD. The request was submitted last May and the service record received by me a few days ago. (The quality of the digital record is excellent, in colour and fully legible.)

TNA have established an MoD Personnel Records Access Service Team for FOI requests. My impression is they are working hard to get the system in place and possibly are a little overwhelmed with requests at the moment. Communication through the process was not great and at one point, after a long period of silence, I nearly re-submitted the request through MoD instead. But I likely jumped the gun anyway in requesting through TNA rather than MoD in the first place.

At the moment it is not clear to me which is the prefered/correct route for a service record request.

Some service records have been released already in record series WO 421 for certain small units. These records have to be advanced ordered, effectively a week in advance, and then viewed in the invigilation room as they contain loose papers.

Post-pandemic a lot more record series are stored off-site and have to be pre-ordered in advance.

 

I recently sent off for my Great Grandads WW2 service record (on his service card it says he was GSC before transferring to the Royal Artillery) just before Christmas and got it back on Friday and in the email it says they are unable to open it because all of the information is exempt under Section 41?

What would be the reason that it’s redacted and does that mean it will never be viewable to a family member?

Regards
Jack

 

I really think you need to address your query to MOD and ask for full explanation of the reasons stated in layman’s terms. Such as - Section 41? Which Act of Parliament?

Steve

 

Section 41 is Section 41 of the Freedom of Information Act

https://ico.org.uk/media/1432163/information-provided-in-confidence-section-41.pdf

Catch all for Courts Martial, medical, nok etc. Does not apply to dead person but there is a duty of care to living named in file - hence 25 years after proved death or 114 years after birth.

Did you provide proof of death or NoK as stated in the application procedure?

Ross

 

Hi Ross,

Yeah I gave them his death certificate when I applied for his record on the Gov website, they emailed me saying it’s with The National Archives so I would have to contact them which I did, is it because the National Archive team didn’t get his death certificate like the Gov website did when I applied?

In the email they sent it said Section 41(1) applies to medical information documented in this record?

 

Only reason to not give a death certificate to MoD on application is if he died in service was that the case.

MoD then look at their own records to verify this.

If on CWGC then this usually suffices MoD and TNA rather than obtaining a death certificate from the GRO - outside this you normally need to send one.

However you now say section 41(1) for medical - did they send redacted minus this section and you requested it in addition.

If so then no record will be released to anyone but the subject without Medical and Criminal information being with held.

Sections 8 and 9 of this explain
https://cdn.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/mod-service-records-collection-faqs.pdf

Ross

 

Hi Ross,

No he survived the war I only sent it as it was part of the application process on the Gov website,

It also says in the email “We are unable to open this record because all of the information is exempt under Section 41 of the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act 2000 until 2026.” So I’m guessing I would have to wait till then to try again?

Do you think I could email them asking for them to redact the medical information section?