109's And 110' Actual Rivals

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by GUMALANGI, Jul 28, 2005.

  1. GUMALANGI

    GUMALANGI Senior Member

    During the 30's Luftwaffe was in mid of selection their single seat fighter, there were few contenders. Bf109B and He112 and two others. He112, despite of better performances and preferable by the the pilots, lost to Bf109's bid. He112 has 1000km normal range, which much over to 600-700km of range by Bf109's, and more Maneuverable than its counterpart. One of its major drawback was Lack of speed, .but;

    The He 112's engine was simply not powerful enough. The RLM did not give permission to replace the 20liter Jumo 210 with one of the new 30liter engines. She was never allowed to show her true potential. Trials with the DB 601 and especially with rocket engines demonstrated how well this model could have performed. This is how the He 112 remained, as the Spaniard Garcia Pardo had put it, "the Rolls-Royce among aircraft with the wrong engine".

    In the other hand, there were proposed of zertorer or heavy fighter models, Bf110 and Fw187 Falke. Again, Falke's was much superior to Bf110. But RLM under Udet, seems went ahead with 110. It's major problems were more political than technological. With the Fw 187 they could have had a successful long-range fighter in the Battle of Britain, which would have made an impact on the relative losses of the clashing air forces.

    Seems the closeness of Willy Messerschmitt to ReichLuftMinisterum, indirectly, hampered Luftwaffe to obtain war-winning weapons, whereas both of the planes has a descend range. On the top, The common "wisdom" of the day was that a long range escort fighter was just not needed as the bombers had sufficient speed and defences to not need an escort in order to achieve their tactical duties.
     
  2. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    I just don't think that the Luftwaffe saw any need for a long range escort fighter - not did the RAF for that matter.

    The Luftwaffe of the 1930s was very much designed as a tactical airforce which would work closely with the army. The situation it found itself in in the summer of 1940 was somewhat outside its planned capability
     
  3. GUMALANGI

    GUMALANGI Senior Member

    Originally posted by angie999@Jul 28 2005, 10:47 AM
    I just don't think that the Luftwaffe saw any need for a long range escort fighter - not did the RAF for that matter.

    The Luftwaffe of the 1930s was very much designed as a tactical airforce which would work closely with the army. The situation it found itself in in the summer of 1940 was somewhat outside its planned capability
    [post=37003]Quoted post[/post]

    Should the range be ignored, however the performance should not, they both were superior aircrafts to their opponent. Especially with Fw187, it could outperformed 110 in almost every aspects.
     
  4. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    I think the He 112 didn't do too well in Spain, which helped lead to its downfall.
     
  5. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by GUMALANGI+Jul 28 2005, 02:27 PM-->(GUMALANGI @ Jul 28 2005, 02:27 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-angie999@Jul 28 2005, 10:47 AM
    I just don't think that the Luftwaffe saw any need for a long range escort fighter - not did the RAF for that matter.

    The Luftwaffe of the 1930s was very much designed as a tactical airforce which would work closely with the army. The situation it found itself in in the summer of 1940 was somewhat outside its planned capability
    [post=37003]Quoted post[/post]

    Should the range be ignored, however the performance should not, they both were superior aircrafts to their opponent. Especially with Fw187, it could outperformed 110 in almost every aspects.
    [post=37017]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]
    herer are the specs for both aircraft

    Fw 187A-0 Specification 55* '
    Type: Tandem Two-seat Heavy Fighter. Power Plants: Two Junkers Jumo 210Ga \2-cylinder liquid-cooled engines rated each at 700 h.p.for take-offand 730 h.p. at 3,280 ft. Armament: Two20-mm. MG FF cannon and four 7.9-mm. MG 17 machine guns. Performance: Maximum speed, 322 m.p.h. at sea level, 329 m.p.h. at 13,780 //.; initial climb rate, 3,445 ft./min.; climb to 6,560ft., 1.9 min., to \9,6S5ft. 5.8 min.; service ceiling, 32,810/C. Weights: Empty, 8,157 Ib.; loaded, 11,023 Ib. Dimensions: Span, 50 ft. 2} in.; length, 36ft. 6 in.; height, 12 ft. 7| in.; wing area, 327.22 sa.ft



    . Bf 110C-1 Specification
    Type: Two- or Three-seat Long-range Fighter. Power Plants: Two Daimler-Benz DB 601/1-1 12-cylinder liquid-cooled inverted-vee engines each rated at 1,050 h.p. for take-off and 1,100 h.p. at 12,140 ft. Armament: Two 20-mm. MG FFcannon with 180 r.p.g., four 7.9-mm. MG 17 machine guns with 1,000 r.p.g., and one (flexible) 7.9-mm. MG 15 machine gun with 750 rounds. Performance: Maximum speed (at 13,289 lb.), 295 m.p.h. at sea level, 326 m.p.h. at 13,120/h, 336 m.p.h. at 19,685 ft.; maximum continuous cruising speed, 262 m.p.h. at sea level, 304 m.p.h. at 16,400 ft., 301 m.p.h. at 22,970 //.; economical cruising speed, 217 m.p.h. at 13,780 ft.; range (normal internal fuel at maximum continuous cruise), 481 mis. at sea level, 528 mis. at 16,400 ft., 565 mis. at 22,910ft., (at economical cruise), 680 mis. at 13,ISO ft.; initial climb rate, 2,165 ft./min.; time to 19,685 ft., 10.2 min.; service ceiling, 32,810 ft. Weights: Empty, 9,755 lb.; empty equipped, 10,769 lb.; loaded, 13,289 lb.; maximum overload, 14,880 lb. Dimensions: Span, 53 ft. 3J in.; length, 39 ft. 1\ in.; height, 13 ft. 6$ in.; wing area, 413.334 sq. ft.
     
  6. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by Kiwiwriter@Jul 28 2005, 02:36 PM

    I think the He 112 didn't do too well in Spain, which helped lead to its downfall.
    [post=37019]Quoted post[/post]



    A He112 shot down a P38 which had strayed into spanish airspace in 1943
     
  7. adrian roberts

    adrian roberts Senior Member

    No twin-engined multi-seat long-range escort fighter would have been effective against single-engined interceptor fighters, especially in the kind of dog-fight situation that would have developed in an escort situation. The P38 [twin-engine but single seat] just about got away with it on account of its high speed. One elite Bf110 unit, LG26 I believe, achieved some success by disciplined tactics of using its high speed to dive on the enemy, open fire, and continue to dive away whether or not they achieved hits - but this was not suitable in an escort situation where the initiative lies with the defenders.
    The only successful escort fighter was the P51 Mustang, when fitted with drop tanks - and then it could only escort the bombers all the way to Berlin if it could avoid combat before the drop-tanks were empty and could be jettisoned.
    As for the HE112, another problem with it was that it was more complicated to build than the Bf109 (e.g. the elliptical wings) and so could not have been produced as fast
    Adrian
     
  8. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Video of recently restored Me109G. unfortunately, the audio is in german, still its stil good footage.Red 7 video
     
  9. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by morse1001+Jul 28 2005, 03:00 PM-->(morse1001 @ Jul 28 2005, 03:00 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Kiwiwriter@Jul 28 2005, 02:36 PM

    I think the He 112 didn't do too well in Spain, which helped lead to its downfall.
    [post=37019]Quoted post[/post]


    A He112 shot down a P38 which had strayed into spanish airspace in 1943
    [post=37027]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]

    Yes, Spain ordered a bunch of them. Hard lines for the P-38.
     
  10. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Originally posted by morse1001+Jul 29 2005, 05:00 AM-->(morse1001 @ Jul 29 2005, 05:00 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Kiwiwriter@Jul 28 2005, 02:36 PM

    I think the He 112 didn't do too well in Spain, which helped lead to its downfall.
    [post=37019]Quoted post[/post]


    A He112 shot down a P38 which had strayed into spanish airspace in 1943
    [post=37027]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]

    Strayed.....or testing the defences??
     
  11. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by spidge+Jul 30 2005, 09:03 AM-->(spidge @ Jul 30 2005, 09:03 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
    Originally posted by morse1001@Jul 29 2005, 05:00 AM
    <!--QuoteBegin-Kiwiwriter@Jul 28 2005, 02:36 PM

    I think the He 112 didn't do too well in Spain, which helped lead to its downfall.
    [post=37019]Quoted post[/post]



    A He112 shot down a P38 which had strayed into spanish airspace in 1943
    [post=37027]Quoted post[/post]




    Strayed.....or testing the defences??
    [post=37069]Quoted post[/post]

    [/b]

    if he was testing the air defences, I doubt if he would put himself in a position, where he would be under attack. Since th P38 was faster than the He112, then he could have hightailed it out of the area
     
  12. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Originally posted by morse1001+Jul 31 2005, 05:05 AM-->(morse1001 @ Jul 31 2005, 05:05 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Originally posted by spidge@Jul 30 2005, 09:03 AM

    Originally posted by morse1001@Jul 29 2005, 05:00 AM
    <!--QuoteBegin-Kiwiwriter@Jul 28 2005, 02:36 PM

    I think the He 112 didn't do too well in Spain, which helped lead to its downfall.
    [post=37019]Quoted post[/post]


    A He112 shot down a P38 which had strayed into spanish airspace in 1943
    [post=37027]Quoted post[/post]



    Strayed.....or testing the defences??
    [post=37069]Quoted post[/post]


    if he was testing the air defences, I doubt if he would put himself in a position, where he would be under attack. Since th P38 was faster than the He112, then he could have hightailed it out of the area
    [post=37081]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]
    Hi Morse,

    If he was faster, was he caught napping? Where did the P-38 flight originate?

    Do you have those details?
     
  13. GUMALANGI

    GUMALANGI Senior Member

    Originally posted by morse1001@Jul 29 2005, 10:34 AM
    Video of recently restored Me109G. unfortunately, the audio is in german, still its stil good footage.Red 7 video
    [post=37039]Quoted post[/post]

    nice footage!
     
  14. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by spidge+Jul 30 2005, 10:58 PM-->(spidge @ Jul 30 2005, 10:58 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Originally posted by morse1001@Jul 31 2005, 05:05 AM
    Originally posted by spidge@Jul 30 2005, 09:03 AM

    Originally posted by morse1001@Jul 29 2005, 05:00 AM
    <!--QuoteBegin-Kiwiwriter@Jul 28 2005, 02:36 PM

    I think the He 112 didn't do too well in Spain, which helped lead to its downfall.
    [post=37019]Quoted post[/post]


    A He112 shot down a P38 which had strayed into spanish airspace in 1943
    [post=37027]Quoted post[/post]



    Strayed.....or testing the defences??
    [post=37069]Quoted post[/post]


    if he was testing the air defences, I doubt if he would put himself in a position, where he would be under attack. Since th P38 was faster than the He112, then he could have hightailed it out of the area
    [post=37081]Quoted post[/post]

    Hi Morse,

    If he was faster, was he caught napping? Where did the P-38 flight originate?

    Do you have those details?
    [post=37086]Quoted post[/post]
    [/b]
    the only other detail That i have is that the aircraft was a He112b of Grupo 27.


    `
     
  15. GUMALANGI

    GUMALANGI Senior Member

    Managed to read few books bout luftwaffe. Seems that it was to political game inside the organization, that leads to the defeat of Luftwaffe.

    Under Milch, when Generalleutnant Walther Wever still alive, they were Ju 89, Do 23 as proposed to became strategic bombers or refers as Ural Bombers . Ju 89 was infact capable of loading 5000kg of ordnance at more than 30,000ft and it could reach every corner of British island

    Erhard Milch was a very effective Chief of RLM, untill Goering out of jelousy dismissed him and replaced him with Ernst Udet, a WW 1 ace but wasnot an effective leader. Under Him, despite of high attrition for 2 years of continous air fighting, the production was slightly rise to about 5-10% compare to pre-war production output. German intelligent already estimated that by the end of 1943, Anglo-US alone could flooded Germany with 10-20,000 bombers.

    Under udet, they were questions;
    - why 109 still produced, despite of its many flaws compared to 190
    - Jet fighter He280 was abandoned despite of its promising disposition
    - 1938 bomber requirement that heavy bomber and anti shipping bomber should be able to perform dive bombing(?)
    and many more...

    Milch returned as RLMeister again after Udet suicide on november 1941, however he came too little too late. Under him he managed to put up the production of fighters from under 1000 per month on 1941 to 1650 per month on the late 1942, and it reached its peak by july1944 which produced 3000 fighter per month.
     
  16. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    Originally posted by morse1001@Jul 29 2005, 12:34 PM
    Video of recently restored Me109G. unfortunately, the audio is in german, still its stil good footage.Red 7 video
    [post=37039]Quoted post[/post]

    An exellent clip, and speaking German, the language wasn't too much of a problem apart from the pilot speaking with one of those southern German accents.
     

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