14,000 Dog-tag return mission: Recce help esp welcome

Discussion in 'Recce' started by DanMackay, May 28, 2017.

  1. DanMackay

    DanMackay please delete my membership


    3rd Royal Tank Regiment

    3452855 ECCLESTON J
    3455040 CHARLTON A
    3455157 DAVENPORT RA
    3973728 LEWIS H
    7883392 HORSBURGH L
    7886524 RAY ER
    7925002 SEMPLE WK
    7931260 ROSE W
    7954187 LANGTON A
    7959116 MACKENZIE JA
    7962928 HALL RL


    24th Lancers

    5505384 EADES LF
    7959726 RICHARDSON SS


    Here's the few I found in those units so far
     
  2. DanMackay

    DanMackay please delete my membership

    Ah ok, I had never though of the 'untold story' as shedding a bad light on this before. Its nothing that anyone won't have ever heard of, but its just an alternative event that was due to happen but didn't need to. A bit like some of the American Airbourne drops that got cancelled because the ground troops would capture the towns before the invasion dates.

    I spent a day recently at Kings College in London and will be going back there soon with the BBC to do some filming. We found some amazing documentation that fully supports everything we believed from the beginning. I have so much to type up on the website and my ERH F/B group, but it lags behind the work, so lots of the stories and success just doesn't get mentioned like it should. I could really do with a PR person ;) I am total open to answer any questions that anyone has about these tags... as long as I know the answer and if its not the 'big reveal' then I will also answers. Don't worry the big secret isn't far fetched at all and I can eventually reveal all the military supporting paperwork to support it. The biggest thing for me was to discover why these tags are made of stainless steal and not the usual compressed fibre. Until these were found it was was pretty much believed that all metal tags were made post WW2, although possibly none, or just a handful were ever issued.

    If anyone still has doubts, please ask on Extreme Relic Hunters on facebook, we have over 2500 members and not much is a secret on there, with people following and even families who I have returned tags too have joined the group. So you will certainly get an honest opinion of this project!

    Thanks for keeping an open mind, Dan
     
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  3. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Interesting. A few familiar names there! Will need to cross-reference and validate. Will do that and revert in the next few days. Note: none of those guys (24th Lancers) are, to the best of my knowledge, still alive. Can't be sure about the 3RTR chaps.

    Edit: Both Eades (who served in HQ Squadron 24L) and Richardson (who was a Replacement in 24L) details check out. Interesting that Ecclestone (3RTR) was transferred there from 24L.
    Small World. Note: I believe I have solved the 'mystery' but promise that I won't spoil the fun. Looking forward to seeing the BBC documentary to see if I'm correct!
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
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  4. DanMackay

    DanMackay please delete my membership

    Glad you find it interesting, I find everything about this fascinating. There will be lots more 3RTR and 24L members, but I have no way of knowing what regiments the bulk of these soldiers belonged to if there is nothing on Forces War Records without spending lots of time on every single tag and even then you have to have some luck,

    Thanks for the little bits of information on those two.

    It's very possible you worked it out, the proof really is out there, it just took lots of finding!

    Dan
     
  5. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

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  6. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Allow a little scepticism.
    There's a smattering of archaeologists on here, some quite advanced in the field, and the first question I've been wanting to ask on their behalf is how exactly these tags were found.
    The media story is 'near an AA site', and I'm told by someone I regard as a very reliable source that most such places are scheduled monuments with permission rather unlikely to be granted.

    I'm not the internet/moral police, but given what I think is fair to see as most of the membership's long stance against anything even potentially uncertain in this area, I'm sort of obliged to enquire.

    Casting no aspersions, intrigued by the whole thing, but always cautious.
    (And as a secondary query: Were these tags ever offered for sale?)
     
  7. DanMackay

    DanMackay please delete my membership

    Hi,

    Anyone who thinks that most areas around an AA site would be a scheduled monument clearly has no idea what they are talking about. Almost all were on private land, most of which are now simple broken concrete bases, or nothing remains at all, some of which were mobile and there would have been no evidence of them ever having been there. The information we gave to the press was correct, it was near an AA site. Near... not on top of, but near. The location of this site has been one constant annoyance since these tags were first mentioned to the press. So please excuse my firm and stroppy tone. Very few WW2 sites are protected in any way at all, let alone being a scheduled monument. Permission to dig anywhere that is not protected simply comes down to the land owners. I have been involved in the recovery of relics for around 8 years, in which time I have been to France, Belgium, Italy and as far as Latvia. In Latvia I was invited to join a team that searches for missing war dead. They then repatriate back to military cemeteries of their own nation. If found with ID then they get a named grave and the families notified. Everything from these trips is paid from my own pocket. I do this as I consider it the right thing to do.

    Recently I recovered a cigarette case/tin that was marked with the name and serial number of a WW1 Canadian soldier, after a few clicks online I discovered he won the VC at Vimy Ridge. This tin was then offered to the museum in Canada that houses and displays his medals, it was mailed off to them a short while later. Again, all at my cost, I didn't sell it, I didn't ask for a reward...

    Since finding these dog-tags over 3 years, all we want to do was return them. I wrote to every newspaper, magazine, TV historian that you can think of. I wrote to every British Army museum... do you know what everyone said... "you can't return any of these, its almost impossible" and not one person offered any help of encouragement in fact most simply said "not interested". I wrote to the Royal British Legion, thinking that some of these guys would be alive and part of their membership. They said pretty much the same thing "not interested". What is wrong with the world, when I visit these families and veterans and present them with these, you can only imagine the joy it brings. So why does everyone who has an interest in military history regard this all in such a negative light. I honestly thought that like minded people with an interest in military history would actually enjoy this project, now I wish I had never posted anything.

    Yes these were offered individually for sale at one point, this was after everyone who claimed that they knew more about these tags than I did told me it was impossible to give them to families/veterans. From selling a couple for as little as a £1 each I even managed to contact the family of one veteran through EBay of all things. I refunded his payment and the tag was posted free and postage paid for by myself. However, why you felt you needed to ask that is a little odd. Since returning that tag via EBay and I discovered that I didn't need to listen to people who 'think' they know more about dog-tags and how to return them than I do, I stopped all sales and now they are all here waiting to be issued, you can disagree with this all you like, but I have seen first hand the joy it brings people and nobody should want to or has the right to take that away from people. These belong to the families of these soldiers and as many as I can get there, will be sent. I spend over 10 hours a day working on this project to do this.

    This will be my last post on here, this is just a drain on my time and I'm not here to convince you all of anything. Everything we do is documented online, I have given you a way to talk to the people who I have returned dog-tags too and people who have witnessed this whole story unfold.

    No hard feelings
     
  8. Shiny 9th

    Shiny 9th Member

    I think your project is both mad in its scale but magnificent in concept.I will look at your FB site with interest.
     
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  9. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    If this is to be your last post how about posting the list of Recce names that you promised to post.

    Cheers
    Paul
     
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  10. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    Dan, sorry if you have not caught on to my weird sense of humour.

    < But now we're desperate to return the dog-tags we've found and I will travel nationwide, if that's what it takes.">

    Easily done put them back in the field.

    Which is the only thing you can do, as you cannot return something to somewhere, it has not been to.

    I can understand your excitement and passion for this project, but have misgivings of how it is being done.

    Yes today, those families receiving those tags will be over the moon and reliving memories.

    But what of the future, 50 60 years hence, how much legend and lore will have been added to these tags, yet they will not even have a single drop of sweat engrained on them from the man whom it was intended.

    In my opinion they should be in the IWM as an exhibit, with the full story attached.
     
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  11. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Concerning some news reports state that some of the tags relate to soldiers kia in Normandy
     
  12. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Where did you read that Clive? Dan said there were no KIA tags. Mentioned on the locked thread in post #13
    WW2 Dog tags found buried.

    Edit: from here?
    WWII Dog Tags Found Near London From More Than 14,000 Soldiers

    'Some of the dog tags found were from British WWII soldiers who died during the Normandy landings, The Telegraph noted. In 1944, some 156,000 Allied soldiers stormed a handful of beaches along the coast of Normandy, France, marking a critical turning point in the war.'


    Lesley
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2017
  13. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    hello Lesley

    Thousands of World War II dog tags were found recently near London by a self-described relic hunter, items that could bring some closure to the families of the soldiers believed to have been killed in action during the conflict.
    Some of the dog tags found were from British WWII soldiers who died during the Normandy landings, The Telegraph noted. In 1944, some 156,000 Allied soldiers stormed a handful of beaches along the coast of Normandy, France, marking a critical turning point in the war.


    Mackay said he has returned eight tags to families but now wants to make a nationwide appeal to return more.

    WWII Dog Tags Found Near London From More Than 14,000 Soldiers
     
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  14. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Whatever happened to the mini-documentary on the Beeb in September then?;)

    Edit: Well I have just gone through the rather long-winded Extreme Relic Hunters site and it appears the programme was aired by the BBC. Did anyone see it? Here is the 'explanation' about the dog tags:

    "2/10/2017 - Now that the BBC show has finally aired, I am able to write all about what these dog-tags were about. Now the BBC was great and it should really help return more of these dog-tags, albeit a little 'staged and scripted' to make a program worth watching. If you saw the program then you will already know the history behind these, if you didn't then I can finally reveal that these dog-tags were part of the preperations for the troops that were going out to fight the Japanese on their home ground. Luckily for these troops the Americans dropped the two atomic bombs and the whole invasion was cancelled as the war came to a swift conclusion. How did we come to this conclusion... well forget everything you saw on the BBC. It idea of the Japanese invasion forces was raised by Katey, she would tell people on a regular basis that there was a good chance that this is what the dog-tags were made for. However we had no proof, my theory was based all around the fact these were metal. As we know from the research, every dog-tag was for a solider in the RAC/RTR or Recce, all armoured fighting vehicles. My conclusion was that they were being changed over to stainless steel so that they would withstand fires inside the vehicles, the fibre ones would simply vanish under the heat and flame! "......more
    Extreme Relic Hunters - Relic hunting
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
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  15. CRS1418

    CRS1418 Ipsissimus

    Something that always bugged me about these since the first time I ever saw them (on eBay) after a friend alerted me to them is ... 'why has a load of 1960 pattern identity discs got pre-1950 Army numbers on them'? ... It was something I could not get my head around (though I genuinely do believe they were found as said) and prevented me from purchasing any. I do have my own theory (though its a little weak when considering the number found) that differs from the above (see below for actual examples of far-east/ tropical issue WW2 aluminium/steel tags), but if the above theory from the ERH website actually is correct, then it's probably a VERY significant find in regards to British ID tag development... probably far more significant than the original finder actually realises.

    Dave

    Tropical issue.jpg Australian Tropical.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2017
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  16. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    I also missed the BBC programme but, as mentioned in my post #23, I had a theory as to the reason for these dog tags. Turns out I was correct: these were the guys destined for the Far East! :)
     
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  17. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    I'm still intrigued about this story, as my dad was in 56 Recce; it's a pity the chap didn't get back to us about the Recce tags and gave us a list.

     
  18. CRS1418

    CRS1418 Ipsissimus

    Not really, Lesley - not the theory I had yesterday anyway - as, with (allegedly) 14,000 of them being found my (first) theory would seem a little weak and silly. However, I'm still intrigued as to why a bunch of discs that appear to be of a pattern not issued in the British Army until the 1950's/60's (unofficially(?) referred to as the '1960 pattern' after the year upon which they became general issue (though they had been issued to some for several years previous) would carry pre-1950 army numbers and details on them.

    My second theory (today!) actually does carry more weight, but is dependant upon whether those soldiers were still serving - or on the reserve - around June 1950 (and involves the number change from Army numbers to Service numbers)... my theory being that they were discs held in reserve/stores for issue in the case of recall and, when the 1950 number change occurred, these became surplus to requirement and were dumped (or, alternatively (and, perhaps, more likely), they were stamped up in error using pre-1950 numbers for soldiers/ex-soldiers who had been renumbered).

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2017
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  19. CRS1418

    CRS1418 Ipsissimus

    Maybe - but far from definitely - correct. Personally (see above), I'm 99% certain that they're 1950's manufactured discs stamped up either erroneously or with obsolete information.

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2017
  20. CRS1418

    CRS1418 Ipsissimus

    ...to add a little weight to my (second) theory, here's an example from earlier in the century...

    Below is the tag to a soldier who was in full time serviced from 1896 to 1908 before re-enlisting into service with the same unit in September 1914 for WW1. This particular tag was never issued to him and was kept in stores before being dumped - along with many others - upon his being renumbered (rendering it obsolete) in September. It, also, was found in the UK...

    Dave

    Meadows tag.jpg
     

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