16 Tank Brigade Company RASC WD Nos

Discussion in 'Vehicle Names and Census Numbers' started by Tom OBrien, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Hi,

    I have another set of 6-ton and 3-ton WD Numbers this time for 16 Tk Bde Coy RASC, hopefully someone can translate into a make for me.:)
    They include:

    3 ton 4884935
    3 ton 4885053
    6 ton 5217218

    Thanks in advance,

    Tom
     
  2. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi,

    I have another set of 6-ton and 3-ton WD Numbers this time for 16 Tk Bde Coy RASC, hopefully someone can translate into a make for me.:)
    They include:

    3 ton 4884935
    3 ton 4885053
    6 ton 5217218

    Thanks in advance,

    Tom

    Hi Tom,

    Thanks for those.

    L4884935 and L4885053 are both Bedford 3 ton 4 x 2 GS from batch V5004 L4876340 - L4886339.
    5217218 I think should be L5217218 a Mack 6 ton 4 x 2 from batch SM2429 5217013 - 5217517 but for some reason on the list I have it is down as X521....
    Hope that helps a little.

    cheers
    Kevin
     
  3. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Kevin,

    Many thanks for the v quick answer. I will try to post all the numbers here when I get round to transcribing the war diary completely.

    Regards

    Tom
     
  4. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Kevin,

    Many thanks for the v quick answer. I will try to post all the numbers here when I get round to transcribing the war diary completely.

    Regards

    Tom

    Thanks Tom,

    I am sure they will be a great addition.

    cheers
    Kevin
     
  5. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Can anyone tell me why this war diary would start talking about 5-tonners? I don't think they had changed the 6-ton Macks, they just seem to have changed what they called them. This is not the only diary to do so.

    Cheers

    Tom
     
  6. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi Tom,

    Do you have any census numbers? It may give us a clue whether it is the Mack's they are talking about.

    cheers

    Kevin
     
  7. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Kevin,

    The only census numbers are from a loading list for June 44: they are definitely Mack 6 tonners though as recorded in War Diary on 24 Jun 44 after arrival in Normandy. I'm transcribing war diary at moment and will post census numbers for 6-ton Macks and Bedford 3-ton lorries as soon as I can.

    The changeover of one platoon to 6-ton Macks is recorded in the war diary as follows:

    24 April 1944
    1030 Received amendment to Mob Order 79/MOB/6430/138 dated 23 APR 44 from War Office (AG5) MOB.

    27 April 1944
    0730 OC and Capt J. Gilder RASC (O i/c Wksps) to ST 3 LONDON re changeover of 3 tonners for 6 tonners consequent on amendment to Mob Order.

    Regards

    Tom
     
  8. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter 1940 Obsessive

    The clue lies, I think in the 'X' prefix which Kevin referred to earlier. These would presumably be Mack EHT tractors ? To quote Vanderveen : "Truck, 5-ton, 4x2, Tractor. ....Coupled to Mack Model ST20 semi-trailer, British nomenclature ; 6-ton 4x2-2 semi-trailer GS"

    I'd have expected the tractor unit to have an 'H' serial and the trailer an 'X' ...or were they actually 5-ton Model EHs and not EHTs at all and should have had an 'L' prefix ?

    If they were EHTs, could it be that the British later down-graded in line with US classification and it became officially known as a 5-ton unit ?

    Someone on 'Olive Drab' has scanned the entry from Vanderveen :-



    http://olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_mack_h_early.php
     
  9. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Well,

    Much as it offends my sense of order, I have skipped forward through the war diary and found the following WD numbers for the 6-tonners!

    5217218
    5217223
    5217224
    5217226
    5217232
    5217235
    5217244
    5217249
    5217250
    5217252
    5217265
    5217266
    5217270
    5217271
    5217272
    5217273
    5217274
    5217276
    5217278
    5217281
    5217312
    5217318
    5217320
    5217322
    5217448

    All of these 25 belonged to 3 Pl, 16 Tk Bde Coy RASC and were noted as carrying Pet. In addition, and restoring my sense of order, "25" matches the number of 6 ton Macks reported as being present with the unit on 24 June 44 in France.

    For completeness, on 24 June 44, the war diary records the Coy as now being complete less residues as follows:

    "10 Offrs and 303 ORs (excl one deserter from Marshalling Area [naughty Dvr McIntyre!]), and vehs 1 x 4 str car, 3 x 2 str cars, 3 x 15 cwt GS, 3 x 15 cwt Water, 80 x 3 ton GS, 25 x 6 ton Macks, 1 x 3 ton Workshops Tech veh, 1 x 3 ton Wksps Stores veh, 1 x 3 ton Albion Breakdown and 38 motor cycles..."

    I'll post 3-ton numbers later - I believe that they were Bedford OY 3-ton 4 x 2s.

    Regards

    Tom
     
  10. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Rich,

    It could be that you are right, I think I've seen this 6 ton to 5 ton unexplained in a few other RASC war diaries. Perhaps now it is explained.

    Cheers,

    Tom
     
  11. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Thanks for those Tom.
    A listing I have states 5217013 - 5217517 Mack, lorry 6 ton, 4 x 2, GS. Contract SM2429

    But oddly enough they have an X prefix, as mentioned earlier.

    cheers

    Kevin
     
  12. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Rich,

    I now don't think that they were tractor and trailer combos due to this letter in war diary 2nd Army ST (WO171/245)

    "From: Rear HQ 21 Army Gp
    SUBJECT:- Issue and transfers of 3-ton, 6-ton, 10-ton
    and Tipping Vehicles RASC Units 21 Army Group 21 A Gp/11304/8/ST
    23 Apr 44
    DDST, Second Army (Adv)
    DDST HQ L of C

    Owing to 6-ton and 10-ton Rigid G.S. vehicles being in short supply, a re-organisation of vehicle holdings in certain RASC units in 21 Army Group is necessary. It has therefore been decided that the following policy will be adopted immediately.
    1.
    (a) All Heavy and Medium Regt Pls RASC will be equipped temporarily with 3-ton GS vehicles only.
    ( B) Army Transport Coys (four Pl) to be temporarily equipped with one Pl 6-ton rigid vehicles in lieu of 2 Pl 6-ton.
    (c) The necessary 2nd line coys RASC will be completed with rigid 6-ton vehicles."

    And I can't stop the smiley face appearing - grrr.

    All very perplexing!

    Regards

    Tom
     
  13. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Dear all,

    Pse find attached a copy of the WD Nos for 16 Tank Bde Coy RASC. Unfortunately they are not complete, as one of my photos is very poor (too much coffee!). I'll try to copy next time at Kew and complete the set.

    I think we have established that they are a mix of Bedford OY 3-ton 4 x 2 and Mack 6-ton "Rigid", but it would be interesting to see what the misc vehicles are (a mixture of MCs, 15 cwts, 3-tons, etc).

    Regards

    Tom
     
  14. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Oops,

    This time with the file attached, doh!

    Cheers

    Tom
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Dear all,

    An update on the 16 Coy RASC strength, as the last serial of this company didn't srrive in Normandy until 6 July 1944:

    6 July 1944 FRESNAY LE CROTTEAU
    0900 4th Serial reported to Coy location. Strength as follows:- 23 x 3 ton GS, 5 x 6 ton MACKS, 1 x 3 ton Wksps Stores, 2 x 15 cwt Water, 6 M/Cs, one Offr and 94 ORs. Strength of Coy now as follows: 103 x 3 ton GS, 30 x 6 ton MACKS, 3 x 15 cwt GS, 5 x 15 cwt Water, 1 x Albion Breakdown, 1 x Wksps Tech, 1 x Wksps Stores, 1 x 4 str Car.

    Regards

    Tom
     
  16. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi Tom,

    A few odd ones.

    T600021 - Albion 6 x 4 Breakdown

    All motorcyles appear to be Matchless 350 and 500cc's except

    C5854628 - James 125cc

    3 tonners are as mostly Bedford OY's. Found one QL.

    L4914454

    1 Humber 4 x 4 4 seater Utility

    M4708930

    1 Morris 10 HP Light Utility

    M4780533

    2 very odd ones.

    X4780907 Trailer, 5 ton 4 wheeled type T
    4485201 Just listed as "various"

    Hope that helps or is of interest. Look forward to the missing pages.

    cheers

    Kevin

     
  17. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Kevin,

    Many thanks for the vehicle identities. A couple more points of interest from the War Diary:

    19 July 1944 NORREY EN BESSIN
    0300 Final Residue of Coy arrives comprised as follows:- One offr and 38 ORs. 6 x 2 str Cars, 6 x 15 cwt GS, 1 x 15 cwt Water Truck, 3 x 6 ton GS, 1 x 3 ton Slave Bty, 1 Scammel Breakdown and 2 M/Cs.

    21 July 1944 NORREY EN BESSIN
    Operation EXPRESS commences – C Sqn E. Lothians under comd 7 RTR, 340 A/T bty under comd 7 RTR.
    Heavy rain all night and during the morning. Some vehs are bogged in places requiring the use of the Scammel B/Down lorry for recovery. 4x4 vehs would obviate this difficulty.

    Regards

    Tom
     

Share This Page