Hello Joe, Welcome to the forum. Sorry I cannot be of help, but there are others on the forum that I am sure will respond when they see your request. Good luck with your quest. Regards Tom
Hi Joe, Just type in service records, pick army, then click army, gives you address, if your Dad is still alive it costs nothing, but he has to apply, ie. next of kin. just follow the instructions. Ken.
Joe - Try QRL Regimental Association which is the regimental web site which in now the Queen's Royal Lancers - click on the old mates section and I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few still around - I served with 16/5th in Austria when the war finished. Cheers and good luck
Thanks for the tips, I'll try both avenues and let you know how I got on. Thanks again, Have a good Christmas and an even better 2009, Joe
hi all, i am really sorry i havent Been back, i have had a couple of bereavements in the Family so all of the Family history got put on the back Burner for a While. Will go through all of the Posts i have missed Now
Hi Emma, not sure if this would help in piecing together anything. My grandfather, Kenneth James Garner was also a tank driver in the 17/21. As yet, my search is very junior. Any info would be a great help, and hopefully I can help you in the future Hiya, if you want to PM or e mail me then i can Send you what i have on George So far
i think i have enough Detail now of where he will have been and when to find out if all of his children are actually His. Am not Sure when 'joe' got Shot But he Didnt get Shot until 13.5.1944 Then He was Convalescent Depot 21.6.1944, Rejoined Regiment 5.8.1944. Attended Vehicle Mechanics Course No.3 at CMTC from 11.9.1944 to 23.10.1944 and qualified as Vehicle Mechanic Group A Class III.he then Appeared before Medical Board and recategorised B1 14.4.1945. So not Really Sure what happened to Him and Where exactly in the World he would have been After he Got Shot
Viva1angel For Joe to be shot on 13th May '44 - he was close to Cassino and the push into the Liri valley just after they arrived in Italy - hospital and convalescent camp would have been Naples and Torre Annunziata in June '44 - he then would have rejoined the regiment on the way to Florence in August - he missed the Gothic Line Battles in September/ October as he would have been at Rieti Base School to become an upgraded Driver /Mech - finally his medical board had to be near Cesena / Rimini / while gearing up for the final battles at the Argenta gap which led to the advance into Austria in early May '45..... Hope this helps Cheers
Thanks for that Tom. So.... Looks Like The First Child We are Trying to sort Paternity for, Born in Nov 1943 Wouldnt have been Joes Child.... Seeing as he was Driving his tank at the time of Conception. the Second Child Born Nov 1945 now Seems probably not to be his Either... if he was Still abroad for the medical Board Hearing in april 1945 he would have missed that Conception Too. So, we finally have a timeline for Joe. Does anyone know if there is a way to find out When He arrived back on British Soil?
Viva1angel Slow down there gel - you are making a few assumptions here - while the 6th Armoured Division which contained the 17/21st Lancers landed in North Africa on the 22 November '42 - and his first child was apparenlty born in November '43 - it does NOT follow that Joe was with the regiment at that time - he might have gone out later - as I and Ron Goldstein did - as reinforcements......they did have a few casualties... similarly after his medical board in April '45...he might have qualified for home leave at around that time - doubtful at best - but possible - then he MIGHT have laid the keel for the second one with a premature birth some seven months later. Only his service records will give you verse and chapter on his actual movements Cheers
viva1angel that is the cost unfortunately for the facts - it's called a "user fee' and is a method of releiving the tax payers of some of the cost of employing civil servants !........many times it's worth it as you need the information - most tax payers don't ! cheers
Emma, one of my local fella's was 17th / 21st, and this is what I have pulled together on Him. Info is all easily accesable, but might be of use. In Memory of Trooper FRED BRIDGE 3715659, 17th/21st Lancers, Royal Armoured Corps who died age 28 on 07 January 1943 Son of Mr. and Mrs. William Bridge; husband of Vera Bridge (nee Wilkinson), of Ditton, Widnes, Lancashire Remembered with honour MEDJEZ-EL-BAB MEMORIAL No other personal details have been able to have been traced other than the fact that born in Bury in 1914 Fred Bridge, was the son of Mr and Mrs William Bridge (nee Ogden), no details of his parents marriage or indeed his own later marriage to a Miss Wilkinson, Originally enlisted in The Kings Own Royal Regiment, the date at which Trooper Bridge Transferred to the Royal Armoured Corps with the 17<SUP>th</SUP>/21<SUP>st</SUP> Lancers is not known and as such details of Fred’s early Military service are difficult to confirm. It is likely that Trooper Bridge was called up at the start of the War, and would have served in either France prior to Dunkirk or in the Middle East / North Africa It is possible that Trooper Bridge transferred to the Royal Armoured Corps whilst already in North Africa with the Kings Own Royal regiment and having joined the 17<SUP>th</SUP> / 21<SUP>st</SUP> Lancers became part of the 78<SUP>th</SUP> Division At the outbreak of the war, the 17th/21st Lancers were based at Colchester. As they had just returned from India, they had not yet been issued with tanks or indeed transport of any kind. It was therefore not in a position to be sent to France as part of the forces that were to try and hold back the Germans. The regiment had to hobble together what equipment it could (four old medium tanks and machine gun mounted pick up trucks) and wander around South and East England as a mobile reserve in the event of an invasion. From September of 1940 the regiment was brigaded together with the 16th/5th Lancers and the 2nd Lothians and Border Horse in the 36th Armoured Brigade as part of the 6th Armoured Division. This liaison was to prove fruitful and the regiment remained in this formation for the entire duration of the war. The unit was initially supplied with Matilda and Valentine tanks. With these tanks, the regiment trained for the next two years in the new tactics and techniques that were being formed as an antidote to the conspicuous German success with tank warfare. The outdated and slow Matildas were replaced by Crusaders. This was not to be too happy a conversion as the upgraded speed was at the cost of reliability and vulnerability. The years of training were put to the test in 1942 as the regiment was sent to Algeria as part of Operation Torch. The plan was to brush aside the Vichy French forces of that country and head to Tunisia as quickly as possible. The French did indeed collapse quickly and the force was able to advance east from Algiers towards Tunisia. However, the Germans were able to react quickly. Their supply lines had been cut considerably by withdrawing to Tunisia and they held a decisive advantage in the air. <O:p</O:p</O:p The regiment came into action for the first time on November 24th as they overran a position held by Italian troops. However, a counterattack by the Germans the next day revealed how poorly armed the British were when compared to the 75mm and 88mm guns of the Germans. The quantity of allied troops had placed them within spitting distance of the prize of Tunis, but German technical and air superiority denied the allies their objectives. The war in Tunisia was about to bog down in to more classically defined front lines The two Allied columns concentrated at Djebel Abiod and Beja, preparing for an assault on 24 November. 36th Brigade was to advance from Djebel Abiod towards Mateur and 11th Brigade was to move down the valley of the River Merjerda to take Majaz al Bab (shown on Allied maps as Medjez el Bab or just Medjez) and then to Tebourba, Djedeida and Tunis. Blade Force was to strike across country on minor roads in the gap between the two infantry brigades towards Sidi Nsir and make flanking attacks on Terbourba and Djedeida. The northern attack did not take place because torrential rain had slowed the build-up. In the south 11th Brigade were halted by stiff resistance at Medjez. However, Blade Force passed through Sidi Nsir to reach the Chouigui Pass, north of Terbourba. Then part of Blade Force comprising 17 light M3 tanks of Company C, 1st Battalion 17<SUP>th</SUP>/21<SUP>st</SUP> Lancers, 1st Armored Regiment, U.S. 1st Armored Division under the command of Major Rudolph Barlow, supported by armoured cars of the Derbyshire Yeomanry, infiltrated behind Axis lines to the newly activated airbase at Djedeida in the afternoon. In a lightning attack, the Allied tanks destroyed more than 20 Axis planes, also shooting up several buildings, supply dumps, and killing and wounding a number of the defenders. However, without infantry support, they were not in a position to consolidate their gains and withdrew to Chouigui. Blade Force's attack caught Nehring by surprise and alerted him to the vulnerability of the strong garrison at Medjez being outflanked. He decided to withdraw from Medjez and strengthen Djedeida, only 30 kilometres (19 mi) from Tunis. 36th Brigade's delayed attack went in on 26 November. However, Nehring had used the time bought holding the position at Djebel Abiod to create an ambush position at Jefna on the road between Sedjenane and Mateur. The Germans occupied high ground on either side of the road, which after the recent heavy rains was very muddy and the ground on either side impassable for vehicles. The ambush worked perfectly with the leading battalion taking 149 casualties. 36th Brigade's commander, Brigadier Kent-Lemon, sent units into the hills to try to flush the German positions out but the stubborn resistance of the paratroopers combined with the cleverly planned interlocking defenses proved too much. A supporting landing by 1 Commando 14 miles (23 km) west of Bizerta on 30 November in an attempt to outflank the Jefna position failed in its objective and they had rejoined 36th Brigade by 3 December. The position remained in German hands until the last days of fighting in Tunisia the following spring. Early on 26 November 11th Brigade were able to enter Medjez unopposed and by late in the day had taken positions in and around Tebourba, which had also been evacuated by the Germans, preparatory to advancing on Djedeida. However, on 27 November the Germans attacked in strength killing 137 men and taking 286 prisoners of war. 11th Brigade made a new attempt to regain the initiative in the early hours of 28 November, attacking towards Djedeida airfield with the help of armor from U.S. 1st Armored Division's Combat Command 'B', which quickly lost nineteen tanks to anti-tank guns positioned within the town. On 29 November fresh units from 78th Division's third brigade, the Guards Brigade, which had arrived at Algiers on 22 November, started to arrive at the front line to relieve 11th Brigade's battered battalions. On 29 November Combat Command B of US 1st Armored Division had concentrated forward for an attack in conjunction with Blade Force planned for 2 December. Meanwhile the 2nd Battalion the Parachute Regiment under Lieutenant Colonel John Dutton Frost would be dropped on 3 December near enemy airfields around Depienne 30 miles (48 km) south of Tunis (Operation OUDNA) to destroy Stuka dive bombers which had been causing considerable problems and threaten Tunis from the south. As it was, they dropped near a place where an experienced Italian Bersaglieri infantry battalion happened to be. Radio Rome reported that the Bersaglieri took 300 British Paratroops prisoners. However, the British reported that they had been in contact with 5th FJR Afrika (5th Fallschirmjager Regiment Africa) supported by tanks and heavy armoured cars.The British parachutists nevertheless reached Oudna but the main armoured attack did not take place having been forestalled by an Axis counterattack on 1 December leaving the survivors of the raid to make their way back to home lines, rejoining 78th Infantry Division on 3 December. The Axis counterattack, led by Major-General Wolfgang Fischer, whose 10th Panzer Division had just arrived in Tunisia, came from the north towards Tebourba. Blade Force became heavily engaged, suffering considerable casualties. By the evening of 2 December Blade Force had been withdrawn leaving 11th Brigade and Combat Command B to deal with the Axis attack. This threatened to cut off 11th Brigade and break through into the Allied rear but desperate fighting by 2nd battalion The Hampshire Regiment (from the Guards Brigade) and the 1st battalion East Surrey Regiment over four days delayed the Axis advance. This together with the effort of Combat Command B in opposing mixed armoured and infantry attacks from the south east permitted a controlled withdrawal to the high ground on each side of the river west of Terbourba As Allied troops built up in Tunisia a new H.Q. under First Army was activated in early May, that of British V Corps under Lieutenant-General Charles Allfrey, to take over command of all forces in the Tebourba sector, which by this time included 6th Armoured Division. Despite Anderson's wish to make one more attempt to break through to Tunis, Allfrey considered the weakened units facing Tebourba were highly threatened and ordered a retreat of roughly 6 miles (9.7 km) to the high positions of Longstop Hill (djebel el Ahmera) and Bou Aoukaz on each side of the river. On the 10 December Axis tanks attacked Combat Command B on Bou Aoukaz becoming hopelessly bogged down in the mud. In turn, the U.S. tanks counter-attacked and were also mired and picked off, losing 18 tanks[30]. Allfrey was still concerned over the vulnerability of his force and ordered a further withdrawal west so that by the end of 10 December Allied units held a defensive line just east of Medjez el Bab. This string of Allied defeats in December cost them dearly; 173 tanks, 432 other vehicles, and 170 artillery pieces were lost, in addition to thousands of casualties. The Allies started a buildup for another attack, and were ready by late December, 1942. The continued but slow buildup had brought Allied force levels up to a total of 54,000 British, 73,800 American, and 7,000 French troops. A hasty intelligence review showed about 125,000 combat and 70,000 service troops, mostly Italian, in front of them. On the night of December 16-December 17, a company of the U.S. 1st Infantry Division made a successful raid on Maknassy, 155 miles (250 km) south of Tunis, and took twenty-one German prisoners. The main attack began the afternoon of December 22, despite rain and insufficient air cover, elements of the U.S. 1st Infantry Division's 18th Regimental Combat team and 2nd Battalion Coldstream Guards of 78th Division's Guards Infantry Brigade made progress up the lower ridges of the 900-foot (270 m) Longstop Hill that controlled the river corridor from Medjez to Tebourba and thence to Tunis. By the morning of 23 December the Coldstreams had driven back the elements of German 10th Panzer Division on the summit were then relieved by 18 RCT and were withdrawn to Mejdez. The Germans regained the hill in a counter-attack and the Coldstreams were ordered back to Longstop. The next day they had regained the peak and with 18 RCT dug in. However, by 25 December, with ammunition running low and Axis forces now holding adjacent high ground, the Longstop position became untenable and the Allies were forced to withdraw to Medjez and by 26 December 1942 the Allies had withdrawn to the line they had set out from two weeks earlier, having suffered 20,743 casualties. The Allied run for Tunis had been stopped Eisenhower, meanwhile, transferred further units from Morocco and Algeria eastward into Tunisia. In the north, Lt Gen Kenneth Anderson's British First Army grew to two corps under command: three more divisions, 1st, 4th and 46th, forming British IX Corps soon joined the 6th Armoured and 78th Infantry Divisions of V Corps already in Tunisia. In the south, the basis of a two-division French corps (French XIX Corps) under Alphonse Juin was being built and in the centre was a new U.S. II Corps, to be commanded by Lloyd Fredendall, eventually to consist of the majority of six divisions: the 1st, 3rd, 9th, and 34th Infantry and the 1st and 2nd Armored. At this stage Giraud had rejected Eisenhower's plan to have the French corps under First Army and they and US II Corps for the time being remained under direct command of AFHQ. Equally important, considerable effort was put into building new airfields and improving provision of air support. The U.S. also started to build up a complex of logistics bases in Algeria and Tunisia, with the eventual goal of forming a large forward base at Maknassy, on the eastern edge of the Atlas Mountains, in excellent position to cut the German-Italian Panzer Army in the south off from its lines of supply to Tunis and isolate it from Fifth Panzer Army in the north. During the first half of January 1943 Andersen had with mixed results kept constant pressure through limited attacks and reconnaissance in strength, and on the 3rd January, an attack by 36 Infantry Brigade to capture the dominating enemy positions on Djebel Azzag and Djebel Ajred was not .very successful and by 5<SUP>th</SUP> January after severe fighting in heavy rain, withdrew to our original front. Losses on both sides were relatively heavy. Again on 3<SUP>rd</SUP> January 6 Armoured Division made a reconnaissance in force in the Goubellat plain; and on the 6th January followed this by a successful local attack north of Bou Arada.<O:p</O:p
RE; Fred Fred Bridge married Vera Wilkinson, 3rd Qtr 1939 in Bury, registration district. Can't find anything on Fred's parents marriage. Ken.
RE; Fred Fred Bridge married Vera Wilkinson, 3rd Qtr 1939 in Bury, registration district. Can't find anything on Fred's parents marriage. Ken. Thanks Ken, I have updated my data Phil
Englandphil - would suggest that you do a bit more updating as the 17th/21st along with 16/5th and 2nd Lothians were always with 26th Brigade in 6th Armoured Div and never were in 78th Div... Cheers
Re Fred, There was Peter Bridge born 4th qtr 1939 Halifax reg district, mother maiden name Wilkinson, but don't think it is a child of Fred's. Also a David Bridge born 1st qtr 1941 Ashton reg district mother name Wilkinson, could be Fred's son. Ken.
Englandphil - would suggest that you do a bit more updating as the 17th/21st along with 16/5th and 2nd Lothians were always with 26th Brigade in 6th Armoured Div and never were in 78th Div... Cheers Tom, records updated, and thanks for the proof read so to speak Phil
Re Fred, There was Peter Bridge born 4th qtr 1939 Halifax reg district, mother maiden name Wilkinson, but don't think it is a child of Fred's. Also a David Bridge born 1st qtr 1941 Ashton reg district mother name Wilkinson, could be Fred's son. Ken. Thanks for the lead Ken, I will follow it up and see what I find Phil
England Phil - you are more than welcome - I am sure that you are aware of the convoluted arrangements of 1st army in North Africa which can lead to many mis-conceptions of what actually happened in a long narrative such as yours - which might lead to a wrong impression of what was going on. It might of some interest to point out that the original landing force of 78th Division was made up of 11th - 36th and 1st Guards bdes - whereas the make up of 6th armoured Div was that of the 26th Armoured along with the 38th (Irish) bde - until the initial force was reinforced by the 1st - 4th and 46th Divs in the march of '43 as well as the 25th Army Tank bde. The 46th was already a mixed Div with the 21st army Tank bde . The 1st army by March '43 was then of two corps which allowed a reshuffling of bdes - the 38th Inf Bde left the 6th Armoured and joined 78th Div and 1st Guards made their way into 6th armoured. This arrangement did away with the earlier Blade and Hart forces where everyone was mixed up with bits and pieces all over the place - and each getting nowhere against the newly arived Von Ahrnim's force including his 10 panzer Div - just in time for Rommel to attack the Americans at Kasserine - 6th armoured along with 21st and 25th helped clean up that mess. As you are aware - the North African campaign finished off with the attack of the 8th Argyll's from 78th Div and Gerry Chester's B sqdn of the NIH of the 25th Army Tank bde on Longstop and the subsequent attack from Medjez by the combined force of 1st Army's 4th infantry and 6th Armoured Divs alongside the 8th Army's 4th Indian and 7th Armoured with 78th Div coming in from the North West....all these divisions finally made it to Italy for the long haul into Austria where 78th - 6th armoured and 46 th were in occupation. Cheers
