1945 GE: Why was Churchill turned out?

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Slipdigit, Jul 28, 2007.

  1. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Here's another link to the same lecture, perhaps available to others outside of UK, happily with transcript:


    old film, modern narrative by John Humphries

    A (poor quality) clip of Churchill on campaign trail
  2. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    I seem to remember Barbara Castle once singing Churchill's praises in an interview and saying that his big mistake was not grooming someone as his replacement.

  3. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

  4. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    For those who can see it, this 1957 interview of Alanbrooke has some good bits (albeit well known) about Churchill's war behaviourial patterns and some close encounters in Moscow..they don't make programmes like this anymore, I wish they did.


  5. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Regarding WSC'S meetings with Stalin,they were very cordial in "any other business". The official meetings usually went on with toasts to either side and continued at a social level.It was said after one of these sessions,WSC was worse for wear but Stalin was unaffected....later it transpired that Stalin had been drinking water,so the story goes.

    If WSC was caught out with the ritual toasts,I see that recently a Labour MP on an official trip to Poland.attending a dinner, was involved a host's toast at every course...a non drinker,he felt ill and retired to bed to sleep it off and died in his sleep.

    In the review of WSC and his times,I have not seen a reference to his admitted depression....as he put it,,,his "Black Dog".
  6. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    In the BBC clip with Brian Horrocks, Alanbrooke describes the encounter in Moscow during August 1943...part of the interest is way Alanbrooke describes the events.."animation" was clearly not part of his arsenal and all the better for it..
  7. Drayton

    Drayton Senior Member

    It is worth recalling that the Conservative Party was sufficiently aware of its own poor reputation that the election slogan adopted on posters was "Vote National - Vote Churchill", with a sketch of the famous Churchill head and cigar. No mention (except in the tiny imprint at the bottom) of the Conservative & Unionist Party. It was clearly hoped that Churchill's personal reputation could be relied upon to swing it, but, as his individual result showed, his reputation carried little weight against the Conservative record.

    Incidentally, it may be mentioned that the slogan confused one elector, an elderly woman far away from Woodford, who was reported as returning from the booth to the Poll clerk in tears, saying, "I can't find Churchill's name on the ballot paper".
  8. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    There's also some useful detail on this at: Hillsdale Edu*

    And the machinations between the allies at the end of the 2nd world war - with Churchill "giving up things that were already lost in order to obtain that which was in doubt"

    On Churchill's statesmanship from the Normandy breakout through the election of 1945: https://soundcloud.com/hillsdale-college/hillsdale-dialogues-11-15-13?in=hillsdale-college/sets/hillsdale-dialogues

    Or alternately on: http://podbay.fm/show/663872027/e/1385395783?autostart=1
    Hillsdale Dialogues 11-15-13, Churchill
    Dr. Arnn and Hugh Hewitt cover Churchill's statesmanship from Normandy through the election of 1945.

    Larry Arnn : http://en.wikipedia....i/Larry_P._Arnn
    "a political conservative and a Constitutional scholar"
    who "worked as Director of Research for Martin Gilbert, the official biographer of Winston Churchill.

    * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsdale_College

    Ps. Slightly "intriguing" that Churchill actually wrote (???) that one of the reasons he thought he lost the 1945 election was that there was discontent that there "wasn't enough tobacco" :pipe:
  9. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    First shown: 25 May 2015

    Available for 6 days

    Churchill: When Britain Said No

  10. Nijmegen

    Nijmegen Member

    Born to lead the fighting against Hitler, but not in touch with the people after the war. Very enlightening documentary.
  11. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    Thanks. Watched it last night - and (as usual) not quite sure about the "am dram" bits ...

    Actually (and I know this has already been added previously), I thought that this lecture, that was shown on the BBC back in January (?), much more enlightening (and includes actual Pathe News voice/visual clips of WSC and CRA).. it was more nuanced and challenges the usual norms of opinion of wot/who won it in 1945. That and some great back stories to the Labour party "campaign".


    From a personal family point of view, my Dad, who was on leave from Austria voted C, my Mum L - my father was vehemently "anti communist" (and possibly further swayed by the rhetoric), and having witnessed some unsettling scenes in May 1945 in the Wolfsberg area..

    my Mum, who had lived in south London before she joined the ATS in Dec 1942 couldn't say a good word about the PM and wouldn't ever change her opinion for the next 65 years..she might, though, have voted Eisenhower in 1945, if he had stood.
  12. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    The documentary was first class for any person who wished to research this era....but again no mention of his "Black Dog"...his depression.

    One might say a politician whose specialism was conflict...as said during the 1930s he was referenced as being a warmonger while he strenuously held the view of the danger to European peace from Hitler.His cousin,the Maquis of Londonderry held a different view on Hitler as did a number of the British upper influential classes including the media giant Lord Rothermere who saw Hitler as a German saviour and in reality were Hitler sycophants.It would appear that these latter people were reflecting their fears of the spread of communism in the aftermath of the Russian revolution and saw the best approach was to resist any social improvement.

    I think as regards WSC personality traits and the adverse.of these traits were highlighted by his subordinates.Management can be a lonely function for a leader and it requires good subordinates to manage, direct and guide the manager to ensure that irrational/poorly thought out objectives are quickly terminated for the good of the cause.History records that Hitler had no one who could keep him in check and away from irrationality...his judgement ruled wholly.and was to the extent, that some history commentators have declared the man to be the best general that the Allies had.Stalin was largely unchallenged and an assessment of the early days of Barbarossa when he was inflexible in his strategy for the defence of Russia... insisted on holding the line led to the Red Army suffering huge losses in casualties and POWs

    I remember the 1945 election quite well and there was a feeling that there would be a change of government from the electorate in the Pontefract constituency....the Conservative Party candidate was a Brigadier Kenneth Hargreaves and the thrust of his candidature appeared to dwell on his army service.However his background was one from a colliery owning family.....colliery owners from the end of the Great War had a poor record of industrial relations with their workforce and Hargreaves was rejected by those who sought social change..

    Later I was to work with an industrial chemist,a Quaker.who had done the rounds throughout his career employed by the leading confectionery Quaker companies......none now I suspect having any influence.He had no time for WSC....considered WSC represented beliefs contrary to his.
  13. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

  14. TriciaF

    TriciaF Junior Member

    That must have been the election when I climbed up onto the roof of the porch of the Miner's Welfare Hall, via the fire escape, and watched a march of miners. It was led , I think, by Alfred Robens. later Lord Robens. It was very dramatic, shaped my political views.
    Churchill and the conservatives never had a chance in coalmining NE.
  15. stoopish

    stoopish Member

    As a military history graduate. One thing I have never ever truly understood, is why Churchill was kicked out.

    Yes his flip flopping political early career. And his ww1 disaster.... But he was the only one standing up against appeasers. He won the war.... A hero.

    I just can't believe the NHS was the only reason. When he left downing street people poured scorn on him.

    I've never known why he was so reviled... Can anyone enlighten me???

  16. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  17. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

  18. jonheyworth

    jonheyworth Senior Member

    I'm Welsh with relatives who died in bomber command and have an interest in military history and history in general . I can't bloody stand Churchill
  19. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    The British love to wait for the next success to come along then kick it down.
  20. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Is this a result of his actions/positions in 1926 or something else?

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