1st Battalion Welch Regiment

Hi all,

I am looking for information on the operations of the 1st Battalion, Welch Regiment in Libya during Rommel's offensive in January 1942. I believe they were part of the 5th Indian Brigade but were attached to 7th INdian Brigade for the defence of Benghazi.

After the battle, they were withdrawn to Egypt and replaced by 1/4th Essex Regiment. It seems they have suffered heavy losses during this period.

Thanks!

 

A have the regimental history and will try and post some pages tomorrow.

 

Here are the pages for 1st Welch Regiment's operations in Libya in January 1942:

 

Here are the remaining pages:

 

Wonderful!
Thank you.

 

Thank you very much Dryan67!

 

I'll be at the Archive soon... I'll have a look there for anything that may help you mate. Really can't promise anything...

 

Hello Dryan67,

I have just joined to read the pages you posted back in 2012, thank you so much. My grandfather was captured on 28 Jan 1942 and I have been looking for a long time for some information on what happened. Could I ask what book this is from please?

 

Lady Jane,

I will alert Dryan67 to your post. He lives in the USA and posts a lot - a she has an impressive library - and may not spot your post. Will you be able to add what happened to your grandfather, please?

 

Lady Jane:

The pages I posted are from the Welch Regiment history:

Lomax, C.E.N. The History of the Welch Regiment 1919-1951. Cardiff: Western Mail and Echo Ltd., 1952.

It is a bit pricey here:

THE HISTORY OF THE WELCH REGIMENT 1919-1951 by de COURCY Captain J. & LOMAX Major-General C.E.N.: (1952) 1st Edition. | E.J Morten Booksellers BA

Here is a link to to download a copy of the 7th Indian Infantry Brigade war diary for January 28th, 1942, the date your grandfather was captured. The 1st Welch were part of the brigade on that date.

SugarSync

Let me know if I can help in any other way.

David A. Ryan

 

Thank you davidbfpo. I've been working backwards for some years on what happened to my Grandfather (Fred Grey) but this is currently what I know:

He was in the South Wales Borderers from 17 Oct 1940 - 10 Jul 1941 and then The Royal Welch from 11 Jul 1941 - 28 Sept 1945 (I have his Record of Service card.)
I have yet to look into his time with the S.W. Borderers and I do not have the Battalion number yet.

Soon after being in The Royal Welch he was sent to Africa and captured, most likely a member of the 1,000 men captured by Rommel in Benghazi, Libya (from the information above, I still need to read more.)
After being captured he was transported up through Italy to the PoW transit camp at Capua, Naples. I don't have dates yet or know how long he was there.
His final destination was a PoW camp in Gneixendorf, Austria - Stalag 17A and then soon after 17B where he would remain until the end of the war. We have two letters from him to my Grandmother dated 23 Jan 1943 and 10 Dec 1944, in the former he states ‘Just as well off here as what I was in Italy, if not better.’
Both Capua and Gneixendorf appear awful after what I have read. At the end of the war I know he was marched with other inmates away for many miles.
He didn't speak of the war afterwards however he did recall somethings over the years. Once when my Father wouldn't eat his dinner one day, that he should be grateful for his dinner as he would never know what it would be like to live off eating raw turnips. He also recalled men falling out out line to pull these vegetables from the ground and the guards shouting for them to fall back in line or they would be shot, they said shoot us then as we're starving.
One relative recalled Fred's feet when he returned from the war saying they were in an awful state. I guess all of him was, he was never in the best of health after returning.

This is what I know so far, I'm writing it up slowly with references to all I find. To my disappointment I've just discovered Fred's war records are being withheld for another 10 years, the only reason given to me was on 'medical grounds'. This is something else I'd like to look into if other family members of PoWs have had their family member records withheld. My guess it's because they were in such bad shape after returning they don't want it known about...just a hypothesis.

Bit of an essay but hope it helps.
Thanks!

 

My goodness thank you so much for the war diary, very much appreciated. I've had a quick scan but will read in detail tomorrow.

Oh yes unlikely I will buy the book at that price but it's good to reference!

 

Lady Jane,

Thanks for the update on your grandfather. A DM to you next.

I am puzzled about this though, hopefully others far more expert can weigh in:

I very much doubt the medical records refer to his condition before liberation, more likely any medical review and treatment after his liberation, plus coming home. Surely as he has passed an individual's record can be released?

 

This is a riveting read, but I have very serious doubts about how closely it relates to what really happened.

The attacking force at Sceleidima were Italians from Ariete (south) and Trieste (east), not Germans. Ariete reports that the fight for the fort started sometime after 15.30 (Italian time), and ended by 16.20 "after a short engagement, the enemy raised the white flag". There is some issue with the timing, with war diaries and messages making this 14.30 and capitulation by 14.55.

Motorised elements of the defending force fled, being pursued by Italian tanks, but not caught. Ariete reports two tanks hit, 3 KIA, 3 WIA. 8th Bersaglieri WD essentially confirms that and notes that they were in Solluch by 1900 hours. They attacked with XII Bersaglieri and 4 Granatieri from the south, while Trieste attacked from the east.

There were no Germans, and all this happened on 28 January, not 27 January.

All the best

Andreas

 

davidbfpo,

Thank you for the DM, very useful information which I will go through.
Please see below the email from the MoD regards to why they will not release the records to me. I agree as he passed away more than 30 years ago I didn't think I would run into problems.

'Fred Grey (SN: 3914325)

We are unable to open this record because all of the information is exempt under Section 41 of the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act 2000 until 2034. This means that we cannot make the record open to you or to the public in general.

The FOI Act gives you the right to know whether we hold the information you want and to have it communicated to you, subject to any exemptions which may apply.

Section 41 (1) of the Act exempts information if (a) it was obtained by the public authority from any other person (including another public authority), and (b) the disclosure of the information to the public (otherwise than under the Act) by the public authority holding it would constitute a breach of confidence actionable by that or any other person.

The information contained in the record relates to information that was given in confidence, the release of which could be actionable in court. Although, for the purposes of the FOI Act, Section 41 is an absolute exemption, I can confirm that we have taken into account the public interest defence test inherent within the common law duty of confidence in reaching this decision.

In this case, Section 41(1) applies to medical information documented in the record.

Please be aware that requests made under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 have to be treated as applicant blind. Therefore, being next-of-kin can have no bearing on the outcome of this request for information. Information released under FOI is released to the public at large, not just to a requester. This is why we have to review these records for sensitivities.

Below we have linked several of our research guides which may help your future research...'

 

davidbfpo,

After reading the information shall I start a post for Fred Grey? I can put what I've already put in this post and what sources have been provided however I don't want to duplicate information / threads.

Thank you

 

Andreas,

Thank you for your message, I was looking at your site a couple of days ago it's fantastic. I wanted to transcribe the War Diary from the 7th Indian Infantry Brigade (mostly done but still needs a bit of work) and compare it to The Royal Welch book excerpts above before I responded. My knowledge of the war in Africa is very limited, so please bear with me.

From your research you believe it was the Italian's who surrounded and captured around half of The Welch Regiment on the 28th Jan 1942? Would this have been at Sceleidima or Soluch? Looking at a map from the time, would they have travelled from Sceleidima to Soluch to attempt to get to Benghazi? The war diary is from Soluch however the book says 'At 14.00hrs Lt. Colonel Napier received orders from Headquarters 4 Indian Division to withdraw to Benghazi but by this time 1st Welch positions were virtually surrounded. At about 15.30hrs our last troops left Sceledeima positions and about 150 officers and men slipped through the enemy cordon north.' Just trying to work it out on the map.

I did a google, to confirm the 'Ariete' were the 132nd Armoured Division which came from the South and 'Trieste' were there 101st Motorised Division which came from the East?

Thank you

 

Hi

Both German and Italian sources agree that it was the Italian Corpo Armata di Manovra (XX. Army Corps) which conducted the attack on Sceleidima with 101st Motorised Division Trieste making the initial attack from the east and 132nd Ariete Armoured Division coming up from the south, surrounding Sceleidima. The nearest Germans would have been at Er Reghima, 60km NNW from Sceleidima.

15.30 hours British time is the same time as Italian time I think, so there is still some confusion around this. The British time lines up with that of Ariete, but not that of the Italian Corps and Trieste.

Attached a map of how I interpret the evidence. After taking Sceleidima, the XX. Army Corps turned northwest towards Solluch, now with Ariete in the van and Trieste following. They reached Solluch at 1900, with no further opposition.

All the best

Andreas

 

Hi

I know this is probably a long shot but does an officer named Geoffrey Child Williams (prob 1st Btn) get a mention in Lomax, C.E.N. The History of the Welch Regiment 1919-1951. Cardiff: Western?

This chap was killed in Athens on 05/12/44 and I am struggling to figure which unit he was with at the time he was killed. I know no battalions of Welch Regiment were in Greece at this time.

He may have picked up Greek from his operations in Crete and gone back to Greece in October 1944 as part of the Military Liaison/relief effort.

This is from Surrey Advertiser 16 December 1944



Thanks in advance

Gus

 

Hello again

Has anyone got a copy of "The Undone Years: Magdalen College Roll of Honour 1939-1947; Roll of Service 1939-1945 and Vietnam" by Hutchins, Roger & Sheppard, Richard.

I have been advised there is a page about Captain Geoffrey Child Williams, as he was a chorister there before the war.

Thanks in advance

Gus