1st Welsh Regiment 21.4.45

Owen -
so that's where they went - couldn't find them anywhere and Burma has never been too high on my reading list...had enough trouble trying to figure out what went on in Mid East and Italy - and just in passing - wondered where Scobie and 70th went ! !
Cheers

 

...and so another piece of the jig saw falls into place - the 1st Batt Welch from Force Reserve in Crete - jumped into 6th Div in Mid East - then 70th Div- or vice versa - and now we find them in 16th Brigade in 8th Div - still in the mid east - somehwere - as 8th Div didn't seem to go anywhere but a good link must be somewhere !
Cheers

 

Just a quick reply now to say thanks for that wealth of information from you all. Going to have a proper read of it now and look into it properly. It is clear that it is turning into a bigger jigsaw than i thought .

Unfortunately i cant get his records from the MOD as I need the consent of Nevile, Daniels son for MOd to release the info (or that is what i am led to believe) and we cant track him down.

 

1945 Welch - I wouldn't bother the MOD with little details such as you can't find Neville - nudge nudge - wink wink - they have a lot to do .......

another jig saw piece is the fact that 8th Div were disbanded in Syria in 1943 so the 1st Welch were orphans once more !

 

1945 Welch - I wouldn't bother the MOD with little details such as you can't find Neville - nudge nudge - wink wink - they have a lot to do .......

another jig saw piece is the fact that 8th Div were disbanded in Syria in 1943 so the 1st Welch were orphans once more !


Thanks Tom, my memory isnt that good so i may accidently forget to mention that bit to the MOD.

Paul

 

Just found a nice timeline for the 1st Welch here:

The Royal Regiment of Wales

 

Thankyou for the maps Ron, i have seen a few online but nothing as detailed and informative as these. Geographically it puts a lot in context for me. I'll see if i can get hold of the book you mentioned also. I was also considering buying "the mailed fist" but i fear only a small part may give reference to the Welch regiment 1944+.

Mailed Fist : British 6th Armoured Division - British Army WW2 Books - World War Two Books – Military History Books online - Ceredigion - Wales UK

 

Regards Mailed Fist, there's not enough info in there that would be relevent to this story.
BUT it's a damned fine read if you like reading about the Britsh Army in WW2.

Thanks Owen, yes i was a bit concerned it wouldnt have relevent information, so i'll give it a miss for now and pick it up in the future

Paul

 

1945 Welch and Qwen -
Nice comments on 6th Armoured Div - Thank you .... did I mention that I was with "B" Squadron - 16/5th Lancers - 26th Armoured bde of the 6th Armoured Div ???.....hmmm

 

1945 Welch and Qwen -
Nice comments on 6th Armoured Div - Thank you .... did I mention that I was with "B" Squadron - 16/5th Lancers - 26th Armoured bde of the 6th Armoured Div ???.....hmmm

Tom, i didnt realise that, as i start to look into this i realise how much of an "experience"(if that is the right word) it must have been for the people that served. Especially towards the end of the war at places like Argenta Gap where from what i read and i may be wrong soldiers knew the war was coming to the end but they still had to fight on. It has always been seen in the family as a tragedy that Daniel died a week or so to the end of the war. I speak with having absolutely no knowledge of what it was really like just an observation.

Most definitely will pick up a copy of the book some time soon and from Owens recomendation.

 

Found some info on the 6th armoured from 20th to 22nd

After the Poles and Americans entered Bologna the city was placed wholly at Fifth Army's disposal; the Poles were halted in positions which denied its northern exits to the enemy. Meanwhile, north of the Argenta Gap, 5 Corps deployed its forces to develop two thrusts, one against Ferrara and the crossings of the River Po to the north-east of the town, and the other north-westwards to cut off the retreat of 1 Parachute Corps. While 6 British Armoured Division (which had been in Eighth Army reserve until 18 April) swept along the north bank of the Reno River to Poggio Renatico and severed the enemy's line of communication between Bologna and Ferrara, General Keightley decided that 8 Indian Division should take over the drive on Ferrara and thus release 6 Armoured Division to throw its full weight westwards. This decision was amply rewarded. By the evening of 22 April two brigades of the Indian division were in the outskirts of Ferrara, and next morning one of them reached the River Po at Pontelagoscuro.

A column from 6 Armoured Division arrived at Bondeno on the evening of the 22nd and also reached the Po next day; another armoured group, continuing westward, made contact with 6 South African Armoured Division, of Fifth Army, on 23 April.

 

1945Welch

Thinking back to your appreciative comment about the Nat Geographic map of Italy, I thought you might like to see the full map, all 22x32 inches of it, taped to a wall so that I could take this snap.

The map has been invaluable ever since I started researching, particularly when looking for the small villages that became our stopping and sometimes staying places between 1943 & 1946

I can only scan one A4 sheet at a time but would be happy to post any part of Sicily/Italy, I would also hope that Nat Geographic would not object to this, particularly as I am telling the world what a great map it is

 

Many thanks for the Map Ron, that is one serious map!! I may take you up on your kind offer and ask you for a scan of a section or two once i start researching the previous movements of the 1st Welsh in the coming days/weeks.

Owen, that is a fascinating read and contains the first mention of Traghetto i have come accross so far. Many thanks for that.

I'm going to try and get the MOD records this week and i have a question which i am possitive you, Ron and Tom could answer, i've read that each section had to keep a official war diary, would the official diaries be kept by the MOD and would one have been done for the 1st Welch or would it have been completed for the 6th Armoured Division as a whole?.

 

1945 Welch -
just to clear up any misunderstandings -at the time of the Argenta gap battles - I was at Rieti being re-trained on Armoured Cars ready for the pursuit into Austria - which didn't come off - so we waited .... I had beeen sent there as i had been wounded in the September battles on Coriano Ridge - finally released from hospital at Catania- Sicily in Jan '45 - wending my way with a stay at Torre Annunziatta for some convalescence - in the meantime my own regiment had been broken up for spares and many had been re directed to other units.
We were then given a choice - Burma - with six months in the Uk. - Greece which was hotting up for a bad scene - or Austria - I chose Austria and the 16/5th Lancers !

on that time line - it appears that in October '44 they were at Taranto and next they were back in Egypt - so they were not in 6th Armoured at that point

The record at Kew will be the actual war diary of the Battalion.
Cheers

 

`1945 – Welch –
Having studied the “Timeline” for the 1st Batt Welch – I must say that they did as much traveling as did the 5th Div – who had the nickname of “globetrotters” as they seemed to be all over the place – and I suspect that at one point – they became attached to that 5th Division. But to start at the beginning :-
May ’39 – Palestine – typical for a regular battalion.
Oct 39- Nov ’39 - Samaria
Nov 39 – July ’40 – Mersa Matruh (Italians becoming active)
Feb ’41 – May ’41 – Crete ( we know they went into Force reserve from Suda)
Nov ’41 – Spring’42 – attached to 4th Indian Div ( who were booked for Ethiopia )
March ’42 – Khartoum
Mar ’43 – June ’43 ( probably still with 4th Indian at Syria
10th July ’43 – Sicily – Syracuse ( 5th Div ?)
3rd Sep – Reggio Italy ( most likely with 5th Div – not 78th nor Canadians)
Oct ’43 – back to Egypt - ?
Jan ’44 – Kabrit – Para school for 10th Batt paras of 4th Bde ?
July ’44 - back to Italy – Tivoli
Sep ’44 – Gothic Line ( 5th Corps? 46th – 56th -1st Armoured ?)
Feb ’45 – Ravenna – (56th Div ?)
April ’45 – Po River – Traghetto ( 6th Armoured)
May ’45 – Tarvisio – ( 6th Armoured )
May ’45 – Carinthia Austria (6th Armoured)
June ’45 – back to Verona – Trieste – (56th Div ?)
Oct ’47 – U.K. now we can fill in some blanks