22nd Dragoons, "C" Squadron, 1st Troop - Unit Structure

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Simon A, Aug 8, 2014.

  1. Simon A

    Simon A Active Member

    My Grandfather went over to France with the above unit on the 11/07/1944. He was later killed in Belgium on the 22 October.

    I have been transcribing his letters home (about 20 or so) and would be grateful if someone could help me understand the structure of his unit. Can you let me know how I might find out the following:-

    1) He was a corporal and later promoted to sergeant - How many tanks would a Corporal / Sergeant be responsible for ?

    In his letters he said "by the way I got a new tank, that makes 4"

    Does he mean he is now responsible for 4 tanks or that he is now on the 4th one (the others having become obsolete or damaged or moved elsewhere)

    2) Can I find out what type of tank he drove? How many crew and what were their duties?

    3) What is the structure of a Troop - How many men, Corporals,Sergeants etc.
    4) What is the structure of a Squadron - How many men, Corporals, Sergeants, Captains etc.

    Cheers

    Simon
     
  2. Pak75

    Pak75 Member

    Hi Simon

    Info by Trux on Flail regiments can be found on this site

    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/23763-special-armour/

    22nd Dragoons were equipped with Sherman Flails.
    There are plenty of reference books, info on net and even a museum for the Westminster Yeomanry.

    According to Trux, each troop was of 5 tanks led by a subaltern, not corporal or sergeant.
    Your grandfather's reference to 'that makes 4' is more than likely the 4th tank replaced in which he was crewing. Mine clearing was dangerous work and Flails were often in the leading tank units to clear a path for everyone else. And the Germans usually covered minefields with anti- tank guns....
     
  3. Simon A

    Simon A Active Member

    Thanks for that

    How many men would crew a tank? I counted the number of men in 1st troop C squad.from a photo in the history of 22 draggoons and was about 24 or 25 which makes 5 crew for 5 tanks. I have transcribed about 16 of his letters and he never mentions flail tanks, only tanks. How many men for one tank?
     
  4. Pak75

    Pak75 Member

    Five per Sherman.

    Four per Firefly.
     
  5. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi Simon,


    You say that so far in the letters you have transcribed your grandfather makes no mention of flail tanks only tanks. Does he mention any other crew names or names of tanks and that he has had 4 tanks? It may be a coincidence but a command tank in C Squadron was named STIRLING IV and another SPITFIRE IV, but this may be a flail tank, with other flail tanks called MUSTANG and another called YOU'VE HAD IT!

    If you do come across any names in the letters would you please post them on this thread.


    cheers


    Kevin
     
  6. Simon A

    Simon A Active Member

    Hi Kevin

    He mentions in the letters 2 names of people they new that were killed.. One was Trooper Coppin his radio operator and the other Ernie Lafbery.- I looked them up in the History of 22nd Dragoons book and Trooper Coppin was killed 19/07/1944 at Le Mesnil Fremental along with Trooper Hackett . 3 crew wounded when Flail Tank was hit. (P.210) and Sgt Ernist Lafbery killed 26/07/1944 whilst bathing at Luc Sur Mer.( P.213). My Grandfathers name was Sgt W.H.Wilkins and after he was killed on the 22 October my Grandmother received a letter from Sgt George Thurgood who described how he was killed and where they buried him.

    There is a photograph in the book of the knocked out tank "You've Had it" belonging to 1st troop. Doesn't look like a Flail tank to me though. Were they able to convert them to normal tanks?

    Thanks

    Simon
     
  7. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    22 Dragoons were a Flail Regiment throughout the NW Europe Campaign.

    Each troop had five Sherman Flail tanks which gave three to flail a gap through a minefield and two in reserve and to give fire support. In the War Establishment Table the Sherman Flail is listed as Cruiser Tank (Sherman 75mm) Special.

    Troop
    Cruiser tank (Sherman 75mm) Special
    Subaltern, corporal driver operator, gunner operator, gunner mechanic,
    driver mechanic
    Cruiser tank (Sherman 75mm) Special
    serjeant, driver operator, gunner operator, gunner mechanic, driver mechanic
    Cruiser tank (Sherman 75mm) Special
    corporal, driver operator, gunner operator, gunner mechanic, driver mechanic
    Cruiser tank (Sherman 75mm) Special
    corporal, driver operator, gunner operator, gunner mechanic, driver mechanic
    Cruiser tank (Sherman 75mm) Special
    corporal, driver operator, gunner operator, gunner mechanic, driver mechanic

    Mike
     
  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive


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  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Lieutenant Peter Burbridge was also killed in the incident

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  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

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  11. Simon A

    Simon A Active Member

    Thanks Andy and Mike

    Kevin - What was the naming convention for naming their tanks. Were they named by the crew? If one was knocked out did that name transfer to a new tank?

    Also my Grandfather mentioned in one of his letter the cost of one of these tanks as being £30,000 which seems very high to me. Does that sound right?

    Simon
     
  12. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi Simon,

    Names seen on early RHQ Covenanter tanks were named after the four Patron Saints, GEORGE, ANDREW, DAVID and PATRICK although so far it has not been confirmed that the names were carried on to later RHQ tanks.
    It seems at least with 22 Dragoons that they did number up-graded or replacement tanks as I, II, III, IV etc but this is not the case with all regiments as it was seen by some to be a bad omen to use the same name twice so another name would be used.
    As to a naming convention with 22 Dragoons ship and aircraft names seem to stand out ship examples such as AJAX, ACHILLES, DUNBAR, LEANDER, LEANDER II and REVENGE with aircraft names such as HELLCAT, SPITFIRE IV, STIRLING IV, THUNDERBOLT, TORNADO, and TYPHOON. There are a couple of known exceptions CITY OF GLOUCESTER, although this could relate to HMS GLOUCESTER, and YOU’VE HAD IT which definitely doesn’t fit into either category.
    I am not sure as to the cost of a Sherman but once they are modified to a flail tank I suppose that a total of £30,000 may not be too far off the mark but perhaps some more in the know of the cost of a Sherman Crab may be able to help confirm.
    I hope this helps.

    Cheers

    Kevin

    BTW. Do you know which troop your grandfather was in?
     
  13. Simon A

    Simon A Active Member

    Thanks Kevin

    Makes me wonder what the name of my Grandfather's tank was. He was from 1st Troop. There is a picture in the Raymond Birt book. The History of the 22nd Dragoons of the knocked out tank called YOU'VE HAD IT. According to the caption it was from 1st Troop C Squadron.

    When yo say command tank do you mean the one that held the Subaltern? How can you tell its the command tank?

    Cheers

    Simon
     
  14. Hello Simon,

    Further to what Kevin said it appears that tanks in 'C' Sqn 22 Dragoons were all named after aircraft names (e.g. TEMPEST which was 'C' Sqn's Armoured Recovery Vehicle, and MUSTANG No.90 in 4 Tp). In 1 Lothians, another of the three Flail Regts, vehicles names were allocated by troop in a directive by the Regt OC. However, because the list does not exactly follow the turret number sequence, it seems that the crews in a troop had some latitude to choose which of the alloted names their tank would wear. Just like Kevin said, it seems that replacement tanks did not always inherit the name of their predecessor, for various reasons, one certainly being the lack of time since the attrition rate was very high.

    'Command tanks', also often referred to as 'gun tanks', were normal Sherman Mark V tanks used by the Squadron Headquarters (three command tanks per Squadron). SPITFIRE and STIRLING were two of 'C' Sqn command tanks.

    It did happen that Crabs which had their flail device damaged beyond repair had what remained of their flailing jibs torch-cut and were subsequently used as gun tanks, but this was always the result of battle damage, never a planned amputation performed on a healthy Crab.

    As for YOU'VE HAD IT, it may be not the tank's name but some graffiti written by the crew, since tanks names would not normally be written on the turret but on the hull sides. There's another photo of this tank inland from JUNO on D Day or shortly afterwards where it seems to already have this marking, as well as a tank name at the regular location above the T-Number. Unfortunately neither inscription is readable on this version of the photo, although I would venture 'TOMAHAWK' for the tank's name:

    Crab No.74 22D near A tk ditch behind Wn29 Couseulles Jun 44.jpg

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2016
  15. KevinT

    KevinT Senior Member

    Hi Michel,

    I think I might have found TEMPEST. Attached image is from British Pathe film ref 1965.17 frame 32. - ADVANCE CONTINUES 1944.
    Although I cannot be 100% sure this ARV TEMPEST is from 22 Dragoons as there are no other markings visible, at least none I could see, it is an ARV called TEMPEST and it is backed up against a Sherman Crab.

    cheers

    Kevin


     

    Attached Files:

  16. Yes, this is the clip where I found TEMPEST. This sequence continues for a couple of seconds in 1987.09 frames 110-120, but still no unit marking can be seen. The towed Crab is a visibly brand new and clean Mark II, and apparently doesn't sport any name or turret number.

    The unit (B or C Sqn 22 Dgns) is inferred by the location (on the way to Villers Bocage) and presumed date (3-4 Aug 44) of the clip, but if one looks hard enough at the very bottom of frame 1965.17.27 one can just see the top of the AoS 51 on the offside end of the differential housing of the ARV, with the 79 Armd Div emblem on the nearside. But this only appeared in the old version of the British Pathe website, since the current one now shows clipped stills instead of the unclipped former ones. A great pity that I did not download all (!) stills when they where still unclipped. At least I kept this one:

    1965_17_027.jpg

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2016
  17. Mikal

    Mikal Junior Member

    Sorry for the late reply. I'll try to answer all the points raised.

    I'm doing this again as everything vamoosed whilst typing.

    The pre August 1944 structure of a flail squadron in 22nd Dragoons was as follows

    HQ Troop - 3 command tanks

    4 Flail troops - 5 Sherman flails

    1 roller troop - 5 roller tanks


    The roller troops enver saw action and only came across to France with the rear party. A few of the rollers were tried out after the capture of the Douvres La Deliverande radar station on the surrounding minefields and never used again.


    At the start of August 1944 the flail regiments had been cut back in size to a new establishment.

    HQ Troop - 3 command tanks.

    3 flail troops - 5 Sherman flails.


    In the case of C Sqn their flail troops were numbered 1, 3, 4. This was related to D Day apparently but I've never been able to drill into that with the survivors. 1 & 2 troops were attached B Sqn on Juno Beach and had a failry easy go of it whereas 3 & 4 troops attached A Squadron on Sword all had a very rough time. I suiggest looking at the diary excerpts I've posted on the Army Rumour Service.


    Perter Burbidge and Ernest Lafberry were both killed by H&I fire whilst they were bathing on the beach.


    "You've Had It" was actually painted on by the crew and was not the name of te vehicle according to Ian Hammerton. An interesting case of hubris.


    The three command tanks were commanded as follows -

    Squadron Officer Commanding - Major P Shuter (until December 1944)

    Squadron Second in Command - Captain Tim Wheway ( awarded MC for D Day later Major as Squadron OC)

    Squadron Third in Command (aka technical officer) - Capt. R. Gebbie



    Lt Alan Thwaites was Troop Leader for 1 Troop, C Squadron. If you have the troop photo I think you have then it was taken in March 1944 at Rendlesham Hall which was the las big batch of formal photos of the regiment prior to D Day.

    Here's a little taster from Alan's memories of the time

    "A large part of the Regiment went ashore at H Hour on D Day to clear the beaches of mines. They suffered a lot of casualties. I had sailed from Tilbury, through the English Channel, where we were fired on by the German cross channel guns. Fortunately their aim was not very good. I was in an American LST and it was very rough, most of my soldiers were seasick. One thing that put me off was in the Officers’ Wardroom. There was a large bowl of crisp fatty bacon covered with syrup. Not quite the dish for an upset stomach. By the time we landed at H+6 Hours I was feeling fine.

    My job on landing was to go up and down the beach clearing the mines. Shortly after landing, I had to answer a call of nature. I wasn’t about to waste time digging a hole as we were being fired at. I dropped my pants and sat down, only to feel something pricking my bottom. On closer examination, I found that I had sat on the firing mechanism of a S-mine. These, when triggered, jumped about 2 feet in the air and then exploded. They were filled with ball bearings. When I had gathered my wits about me, I looked down and found that whoever had laid the mine had forgotten to remove the safety pin. Thus my matrimonial prospects remained intact."
     
  18. idler

    idler GeneralList

  19. Mikal

    Mikal Junior Member

    Extract from C Squadron diary (maintained by Capt. Tim Wheway MC)

    October 22nd, 1944. *
    After a quiet night a heavy barrage came down on 49th Div HQ, causing casualties. It was an extremely ridiculous position to have a Divisional HQ. Evidently the Div. Gen., Gen. Barker, had counted on the Germans withdrawing and had moved up beyond his own F.D.L.s, all the infantry now being in our rear.
    Reports came through from the echelon that things were getting active in Star wood and around the chateau. It would be fair to point out that the echelon, including cooks and batmen, were even forward of the tanks and we were dependant on them holding the line to our left and West. We moved 1st Troop’s tanks up to the echelon to give them some heavy support and very shortly afterwards they reported contact with enemy S.P.s. After a shooting match, L/Sgt Wilkins reported he had knocked out and brewed up an enemy S.P., but was nearly out of ammo himself and asked permission to withdraw to re-fuel and re-load. Permission was given and he returned to a drive in the wood, covered by another tank of his troop. As he moved into a position in the drive with a better field of fire, an enemy S.P. came in at the other end of the drive, and fire one shot, shooting away the turret covers and killing Sgt Wilkins and wounding his Gunner, Tpr Widdowsen. It then disappeared, an S.P. came to the edge of the wood forward of Div. HQ and ripped off 2 or 3 shots at 3rd Troop. Lt. Martin-Leake went out to settle accounts, but had to withdraw to cover after having several near misses.
    Captain Wheway gave orders for B Echelon to withdraw and return to Westmalle, as things were not very comfortable and left 1st Troop and A Echelon to hold on to the Chateau. At 1600 hrs, Gen. Barker instructed Captain Wheway to clear wood, De Wolfsheuvel, and to collect as many men as the 49th Div Recce regt could give him to assist. Recce Regt could only spare 4 carriers and 23 men and although weakening our right flank and making it very vulnerable, it was necessary to pull out 6 flails and the 2 command tanks for this attack as we understood that the farm at De Wolfsheuvel was held by some 300 enemy with A/T guns and that they had already captured 107 RAC Echelon and 49 Field Regt RA adv Recce, as well as knocking out 2 49 Recce armoured cars.

    We were much too thin on the ground to split up into parties down the sides of the woods, so Captain Wheway decided to attack in full force down the main side towards the farm, with all guns firing. It was a terrific sight with 75s bursting in the trees. Lt. Martin-Leake led and after going 400 yds was forced to detour into a field because the captured echelons blocked the track.

    Shots and panzer tanks began to come from all around us and tank commanders fired into the enemy slit trenches with their turret guns, as we were right on top of them and it was impossible to use the tank guns at such close range. We got through to the other side of the farm and took on several buildings likely to house enemy and brewed them up. After going another ½ mile, we contacted the Canadians. The Recce who were mopping up behind us, wirelessed that they were having a very bad time, so we about turned to assist them. It was a very fierce battle for about ½ hour and Lt. Boal had a very sticky time, getting bogged in front of an enemy trench. Showing great coolness and bravery, Tpr Pritchard, his co-gunner, dismounted while Lt. Boal kept up fire into the enemy, and fixed the tow rope to another tank and got going again.

    Meanwhile Captains Wheway and Gebbie took on the farmhouse and after firing one 75 shot through the roof, Lt. Boal came on the air and said the shrapnel from the shell came onto them, so they finished the job with Browning. All the prisoners who were in the farmhouse had Lt. Boal to thank for their lives. As an RA major who contacted us the next morning said, he was a prisoner there and as soon as the shell hit the farm, they all said goodbye and thought their last moment had come and he could not understand why we had suddenly ceased heavy fire. We had now lost 2 flails overturned in the dykes and the Recce were well in and had captured about 40 enemy, suffering several casualties themselves. We had accounted for one 50mm gun and one 20mm and as darkness fell we withdrew, snipers still being active, taking our knocked out tank crews with us. Returning to the Chateau we continued the all night defence of this area, with heavy mortaring by the enemy.
     
  20. Mikal

    Mikal Junior Member

    A slightly more laconic diary record from Major Piers Plowden, 2-i-C 22nd Dragoons.

    October 22nd 1944 D+138
    Dull.
    We were really heavily shelled all the morning – most unpleasant and I shared the Generals slit trench with him on one occasion.
    Div HQ. moved into a more salubrious area in a wood away from the crossroads during the afternoon.
    The flails cleared some woods and continued to act as protective platoon to Div HQ and the men are getting a bit tired - the Crocodiles returned from outlying brigades where they had dome some flaming but had had no casualties.
    Sgt Wilkins who knocked out an S.P. gun was killed by an 88 and one man was wounded.
     

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