24th Lancers Regimental Nominal Roll and Postings August 1944

Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by Drew5233, Jul 31, 2016.

  1. harkness

    harkness Well-Known Member

    Here are brief details of some of the men who moved to 23H, either directly or via 270 FDS:

    Capt. David Crisp Turquand, MC
    Born 4 Oct 1919 in Brighton, Sussex
    Died 2001 in Leominster, Herefordshire.

    Capt. Robert Houlton Hart, MC
    Born Wallingford 1915
    KIA 18 Aub 1944 in Notre Dame du Rocher, Normandy.

    Lt. Donald James Drake, MC
    Born 23 Feb 1922 in Detroit, Michigan, USA
    Died 2004 in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire.

    Lt. Richard Arthur Petley
    Born 14 Aug 1923 in Andover, Hampshire
    Died 4 Jan 1948 in Queen Alexandra Military Hospital, Millbank, London.

    Sgt. Lloyd Albert Austin
    Born 2 Jan 1917 in Wandsworth, London
    Died 2003 in Surrey.

    Tpr. James Beddow
    Born 1923 in Wolverhampton.

    Tpr. Edward William Bemmer
    Born 20 May 1923 in Brentford
    Died 1995 in Poole, Dorset.

    Tpr. Pietro (Peter) Borras
    Born 2 Aug 1916 in London
    Died 1994 in Oxford.

    Tpr. William Colin W Burnett
    Born 22 Apr 1922 in Pontypridd
    Died 1992 in Merthyr Tydfil, Mid Glamorgan.

    Tpr. John (Jack) Kenneth Bushnell
    Born 1923 in Ross-on-Wye
    KIA 4 Sep 1944 in Antwerp.

    Tpr. Arthur William Coates
    Born 23 Jan 1914 in Portsmouth, Hampshire
    Died 2000 in Poole, Dorset.

    Tpr. Dennis Curbishley
    Born 25 Mar 1924 in Sheffield
    Died 1969 in Wortley, Yorkshire West Riding.

    Tpr. Gilbert E. Davies
    Born 1924 in Islington.

    L/Sgt. Arthur John H Embleton
    Born 12 Aug 1909 in Hastings
    Died 2000 in Lewisham, London.

    Tpr. John Edward Evans
    Born 26 Sep 1917 in Walsall, Staffordshire
    Died 1972 in Walsall.

    Tpr. Brian J Fitzpatrick
    Born 1923 in Fulham.

    Sgt. Leonard Charles Gardiner
    Born 18 Jan 1913 in Cardiff
    Died 1996 in South Glamorgan.

    L/Cpl. Edward Victor Gratwicke
    Born 31 Oct 1909 in West Ham
    Died 1972 in Brent, Greater London.

    Cpl. Lloyd Clifford Haskins
    Born 28 May 1912 in Hampshire
    Died 8 Jan 1983 in Portsmouth.

    Cpl. Charles Hewitt
    Born 27 Jul 1916 in Bolton, Lancashire
    Died 1984 in Bolton.

    Tpr. Clarence Land
    Born 1923 in Hartismere, Suffolk
    Died 19 Jan 2009 in Norfolk.

    Tpr. Sydney J Love
    Born 02 Feb 1915 in Poplar, London
    Died 1965 in Wandsworth, London.

    Tpr. Joseph Marment
    Born 20 Dec 1922 in Bristol
    Died 2001 in Bristol.

    Tpr. Ronald Thomas Moulding
    Born 14 Dec 1923 in Pontypridd, Glamorgan
    Died 1999 in Pontypridd.

    Tpr. John Arthur H Munday
    Born 5 Jan 1924 in Canterbury, Kent
    Died 1988 in Canterbury.

    Tpr. Edward Graham Newton
    Born 1923 in Lanchester, Durham
    KIA 4 Nov 1944 in Deurne, Belgium.

    Cpl. Alfred Philip Packman
    Born 6 Jun 1914 in Sevenoaks, Kent
    KIA 9 Aug 1944 in La Barbiere, Normandy.

    Sgt. Christopher Thomas Patrick
    Born 1912 in Bedwelty, Monmouthshire
    KIA 1 May 1945 in Sahms, Germany.

    Sgt. Horace Charles Ranford
    Born 1907 in Camberwell, Surrey
    Died 1990 in Lambeth, London.

    Tpr. Philip Sidney J Scrimshire
    Born 3 Nov 1923 in Foleshill, Warwickshire
    Died 1972 in Sutton Coldfield, Warwickshire.

    Tpr. Kenneth Shelton
    Born 15 Aug 1923 in Basford
    Died 2003 in Nottingham.

    Tpr. Edward Charles Simpson
    Born 30 Sep 1923 in Fareham, Hampshire
    Died 1980 in Portsmouth, Hampshire.

    Cpl. Reginald T Snowling
    Born 1921 in Ipswich.

    Cpl. Ernest Alfred Tombs
    Born 28 Apr 1911 in Aston, Warwickshire
    Died 1981 in Sandwell, West Midlands.

    Tpr. Frank Treble
    Born 29 Mar 1905 in Eastbourne, Sussex
    Died 1989 in Bracknell, Berkshire.

    Cpl. Thomas Dunn Turnbull
    Born 8 Jun 1912 in Gateshead, Durham
    Died 1986 in Coventry, Warwickshire.

    Sgt. James Henry Waine
    Born 31 Oct 1919 in St Helens, Lancashire
    Deied 29 Feb 2004 in Knowsley, Merseyside.

    L/Cpl. Kenneth Weaver
    Born 22 Dec 1920 in Chesterfield, Derbyshire
    Died 2 May 2009 in Chesterfield.

    Tpr. Ronald George Whittaker
    Born 9 Apr 1923 in Nottingham
    Died 1981 in Worksop, Nottinghamshire.

    L/Cpl. Ernest Charles Williams
    Born 10 May 1911 in Bedfordshire
    Died 1996 in Bedford.

    Cpl. Ronald Willson
    Born 23 Jan 1911 in West Ham
    Died 2005 in Barnet, Middlesex.
     
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  2. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Good to see Reginald Snowling on there. I popped round to see him Sunday afternoon and to look at his Légion d'Honneur medal.
    He's still looking well and full of stories.
    He insisted I put his jacket with all his medals on and his black beret so he could have a picture.
    The jacket fitted like a glove but I have a big head so the beret didn't look to clever. Hence why you won't be seeing the photos.
     
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  3. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Harkness

    Welcome to the Forum.

    Can I ask the source of that very comprehensive information.

    Steve
     
  4. harkness

    harkness Well-Known Member

    Hi Steve,

    4 years (and counting) of intensive research!

    Two men missing from the nominal roll (undergoing medical treatment at the time of the disbanding):

    Lt. Bertram Henry Garai
    Born 1919 in New York
    Died 21 Jan 2014 in Surrey.

    Lt Richard Fitzgibbon Leather, MC
    Born 1922, in Scotland
    Died 4 Dec 1989 in Malindi, Kenya.
     
  5. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Harkness

    Interesting albeit I'm slightly confused but in a positive way! Is your main focus/interest on 24L or 23H? The reason I say that is that I understand that Bertram Garai (who was my immediate predecessor as Hon Sec of the 24th Lancers Old Comrades Association) went to the Inns of Court Regiment when he returned to Arms after recovering from his wounds received whilst with 24L.
     
  6. harkness

    harkness Well-Known Member

    Steve,

    My main interest is 23H.

    Bertam was definitely in A Squadron of 23H (he's on their address list, living at 54 Chiltern Drive, Surbiton).

    The IWM summary of his interview states:

    "Recollections of operations as officer with 1 Troop, A Sqdn 23 Hussars, 11th Armoured Div in North West Europe, 8/1944-9/1944: fate of 24 Lancers during his absence. REEL 6 Continues: return to Normandy and redirection to 23 Hussars, 8/1944; joining unit at Vernon on River Seine, 8/1944; rapid advance to Antwerp".
     
  7. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I (briefly) looked into some web info (anyway what I could find ;-) on Bertram Garai a while back:
    24th Lancers - Roll of Honour

    Re. the Inns of the Court too: LIBRARY

    The 2014 one mentions him.

    They have put online pdfs for Vanguards 2015 and 2016, since then, but I only just noticed this, and what looks like a new website design, so I haven't had a chance yet to browse through them ;-)
     
  8. harkness

    harkness Well-Known Member

    He's listed as wounded on 21 Sep 1944 (which suggest the Gerwen area).

    He also attended the 1959 23H reunion, where he appears as "Garai, Major".
     
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  9. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Harkness

    Good stuff! Thanks for the update.

    Are you in touch with any remaining 23H veterans? Please contact me via a 'Conversation' if you feel that's more appropriate.

    You might also want to search for the Battle of Holtwick thread which also featured the 23H.
     
  10. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    This has me pondering the wiki page, again ;-( Bad idea, I know :)

    24th Lancers - Wikipedia

    "The regiment landed on 7 June 1944 (D+1).[5] Equipped with Sherman tanks, shortly after landing the regiment was involved in the fighting around Putot-en-Bessin and Villers Bocage. After intensive action in the Tilly-sur-Seulles, Fontenay-le-Pesnel, Tessel Wood and Rauray areas, the regiment was disbanded towards the end of July 1944 due to heavy casualties and limited reinforcements, and its personnel were transferred to other regiments. Most of these men went to the 23rd Hussars or other units of the 8th Armoured Brigade, or the 29th Armoured Brigade in the 11th Armoured Division.[1] Since D-Day, the regiment had lost 41 officers and men killed in action, along with 98 wounded or missing."

    I always wondered (persistently ;-) why the "most of the men went to the 23rd Hussars" was so often (apparently?) quoted, and I have (I think) sometimes, or even quite often ;-) seen the rest of it ignored and it basically saying only "Most of these men went to the 23rd Hussars"

    I'd sort of half assumed that a great many of the persons listed as Xiv on:

    24th Lancers Regimental Nominal Roll and Postings August 1944


    Had eventually ended up in the 23rd Hussars.

    When I first saw the list:

    24th Lancers Regimental Nominal Roll and Postings August 1944

    I thought for some reason that this was all those that went from the 24th L to the 23rd Hussars, so I was rather surprised that it wasn't in the hundreds, as I would have supposed it would have had to have been were it "most of the men".

    I saw then that it said "brief details of some of the men" ;-)

    I wonder though where that quote originally came from and why it seems to have persisted, and been repeated so often now.

    Looking at page: 194 of "None Had Lances" it says: the 24th Lancers were "scattered among eleven other regiments. No place could be found immediately for nearly half the Regiment and they went to holding units or were sent back to the UK"
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
  11. BobL

    BobL Spitfire Ballast

    This had me confused when I was reading up on my Uncle Rhys - he states in his wartime 'diary' (as quoted earlier in thread) that he landed on 6th June. He was on an American ship for four days prior - did he lose track of the time while on the "John I Jones"?
    Did some elements of the 24L land on 6th June under Lt Col. W.A.C. Anderson?
    D-Day : Normandy 1944 - GOLD BEACH : British Troops

    As we know he was posted to the 44th RTR rather than the 23H...
     
  12. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Oh wiki ;-)

    The 24th L wardiary has:


    Southampton Water - 1-3/6/44 The Regiment remained in LSTs.

    4/6/44 Information was received that D Day was postponed for 24 hours.

    5/6/44 Information was received that the operation would begin on 6 June.

    1800 The Convoy left Southampton Water and crossed the Channel during the night. There was no enemy interference with the crossing and all the LSTs which carried the Regiment arrived safely.

    Asnelles 6/6/44 The Regiment was lying up in LSTs off Asnelles in the late morning.

    During the evening, most of ‘B’ Sqn tanks disembarked, also some tanks and other vehicles from ‘A’ and ‘C’ Sqns. Few enemy aircraft were observed during the day and the AA opposition put up by the numerous small craft off the French coast was very considerable.

    7/6/44 During the day further vehicles of the Regiment disembarked and by 2300 hours, the whole Regimental Assault party had landed. ‘B’ Sqn together with eight tanks of ‘A’ Sqn were used during the day for mopping up operations in the area Bazenville in which the Regiment were later to concentrate. It was revealed later that ‘B’ Sqn killed or captured over 100 German Infantrymen in this operation.

    8/6/44 At 0770 hours the Regiment had assembled in the area Martragny and prepared to advance in accordance with the Operation Order No.1 attached to this war diary. Advancing down the main Bayeux-Caen road just East of St Leger, leading elements of the Regiment were heavily engaged by A/Tk guns and a Stuart tank was destroyed. Supporting artillery engaged suspected enemy gun positions with fire but in spite of this the Regiment was unable to advance.

    A particularly active enemy position was found at Putot-En-Bassin and in the late afternoon the Regiment advanced and attacked this position. The position was found to be strongly held by 3 Bns of a Pz Gren Regt in the Hitler Jugend Div, numbers of which infantry had hidden themselves in the long grass an the orchards west of Putot and also at the tops of trees whence tank commanders were continuously sniped.

    After inflicting heavy casualties and taking approx 40 prisoners, the Regiment withdrew from this position and later were ordered to concentrate again in the area Martragny.

    Pt 103 - 9/6/44 At 0700 hours this morning the Regiment took up the advance again and relieved the SRY who were holding some wooded high ground North of St Pierre, a position which will be referred to in the future in this diary as “Pt 103”. The Regiment remained in this position during the day and engaged SP guns and dug in German Heavy Tanks which continually shelled the position with HE and when opportunity offered, with AP. The position was also subjected to heavy Mortar fire day and night.

    The Germans were found to be using flashless 88mm guns which made their position extremely difficult to locate. Most useful support was given to the Regiment while holding this position by our Artillery OP.

    During the afternoon the Regiment supported a Battalion of the DLI in an attack on St Pierre which was largely successful, and at last light the Regiment, less ‘C’ Sqn, who were to remain in St Pierre overnight, returned to the perimeter of Pt 103.

    Pt 103 - 10/6/44 At first light, 3 of ‘C’ Sqn tanks together with the Sqn Leader who was wounded arrived at Pt 103 and reported heavy opposition from St Pierre and fire from enemy tanks in the area. The DLI, in the village had suffered heavy casualties and the remainder of the Regiment left Pt 103 and advanced to St Pierre, ‘A’ Sqn on the right covering the bridge crossing the R. Seulles to the East of Tilly and ‘B’ Sqn on the left overlooking Fontenay.

    The remainder of ‘C’ Sqn tanks withdrew to the perimeter at Pt 103 and covered the action.

    Lots and lots more info. in NHL too ;-)
     
  13. BobL

    BobL Spitfire Ballast

    Thanks for the clarification!!

    A family friend who was OC 485 (NZ) Sqn was flying his Spifire MkIXB MK862 on "Beachead Patrol" on the 6th June - from his logbook -
     
  14. BobL

    BobL Spitfire Ballast

    The next couple of paragraphs follow on from the one I posted on the previous page - sounds like the action listed in the war diary for the 7 & 8/6/44?
     
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  15. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Thanks for that Harkness I had wondered what had happened to Richard "Bunny" Leathers since reading his diary in NHL he was my grandads troop commander before he was wounded and returned to England. I read he emigrated to Africa but I didn't know he died nearly 30 yrs ago
     
  16. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    BobL

    As promised in post #19, herewith the summary details I have relating to the names you've mentioned so far.

    Guest: Driver/Operator in B Squadron
    Price: Gunner in B Squadron
    Wassal: no mention in my records
    Griffiths: Gunner/Mechanic in B Squadron
    Fitzhugh: early B Squadron Leader. Transferred out of 24L and replaced by Bennett. Died about 15 years ago if memory serves me right.
    Fuller: Tank Commander B Squadron
    Bennett: B Squadron Leader
    Kerr: B Squadron. Killed at Tessel Wood.
    Arbuthnot: C Squadron. Killed (at Tessel Wood or close by)
    Williams: Tank Commander B Squadron
    Cummings: no mention in my records.

    Note: effective date of above details is D Day unless mentioned otherwise.

    I'm intrigued by the ship being named the John I Jones. Would like more details if you have them because, to the best of my knowledge, the 24L lift was by LST which had numbers but not named. I'm wondering if the name refers to the Captain of the ship?

    Steve
     
  17. BobL

    BobL Spitfire Ballast

    That's the only reference to the ship - I don't know any more I'm afraid.
    The diary was originally written in Welsh and translated by his brother (my surviving uncle) so maybe there may have been an error in translation?
     
  18. harkness

    harkness Well-Known Member

    One fact that struck me while doing the research is that a large number of men didn't live the long life that they surely deserved. 25% of the men I've traced so far died aged 65 or younger - I have been told that this is 'statistically significant'. I wonder if asbestos played a part?
     
  19. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    In ref. to post #37 above...

    I wasn't sure, but I thought there was a good chance perhaps that some of them had been "given" unofficial (perhaps?) names etc. by their Captains or crew etc. Probably "unofficially" but someone with a bit of artistic talent etc. might have written it somewhere or referred generally to the ship as the "such-and-such" rather than always by just the number to their passengers.

    Equally though "John I Jones"

    LST Normandy John I Jones - Google Search

    Took me to... http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?2335

    Which isn't exactly this and is a busy page that will take a while to digest etc. ;-)

    But I think is basically just because of the name:

    John Paul Jones (on there)
    http://www.wrecksite.eu/ownerBuilderView.aspx?9320

    Anyhow, anyone reading this about nominal rolls will be getting confused now ;-)
     
  20. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Perhaps, very probably, and smoking (a very great deal too). My gd died about a year or two after he retired, but then I guess that was fairly usual in those days...
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2017

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