24th Lancers - Roll of Honour

Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by Ramiles, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Rm sorry about that a bit to much going on at the same time when I was reading through and I obviously didn't look at it properly just see the "J" and "sim" and posted it.
    Next time I'll look closer before hitting the reply
     
  2. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Trooper Sydney Pownall

    Casualty Details

    Fallen Heroes of Normandy | Detail

    Is mentioned in "None Had Lancers" on p70 as an ex-24th Lancer who was transferred to the SRY shortly before D-Day and who was a casualty when his DD tank sank during the D-Day landings.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2017
  3. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Rm
    trooper Pownall now rests exactly behind my grandads grave. ( his is XIV 24 K)
    if u can enlarge my screen name picture of my grandads original marker cross you can just see the "tpr pow" and the beginning of his army number.
    i was going to include a picture i took last year in bayeux cemetery which you can see his head stone a bit better behind my grandads but for some reason i am unable to upload any pictures to the site?
    i wanted to show it because of the badge on the headstone it differs from the other SRY badges ive seen because it does not have the kings crown at the top any ideas why not?
    I did look at trooper pownall's headstone whilst we were in the cemetery without realising he was originally a 24th lancer.
    one odd thing tho is in the picture of my grandads original cross marker the cross next to trooper pownalls clearly has the start of a name as it says wat*** also a number which i cant read from the photo. Plus the start of a date which i cant make out either. But when i looked last year at the headstone it just says on it a soldier of the war 1939/45 so obviously there was either a mistake made or something found out later on. Bit of a mystery but i doubt it was a one off given the amount of casualties.

    Regards

    shaun
    .
     
  4. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Re. the Gallery Shaun,

    I think it is explained here: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/61945-my-gallery-have-i-missed-something/?hl=gallery

    As to all the rest, keep finding questions don't we ;)

    But you never know who might pop up to answer them :)

    Ps. Re. today's date, and the entry in the 24th L wardiary:

    24/7/44

    At 1745 hours the Commanding Officer, Lt.Col.W.A.C.Anderson,
    DSO, informed the Regiment that the 24th Lancers were to be disbanded
    .

    It prompted me to go back and re-read the relevant chapter(s) of "None Had Lances" etc. for this date - 24th July 1944 and the decision to disband the 24th L.

    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/57330-24th-lancers-in-july-1944/
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2017
  5. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Yes a very poignant date indeed. I can only try and wonder how my grandad would have taken the news. And what Regiment he would have joined after disbandment?
     
  6. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Noticed that the wiki page: 24th Lancers - Wikipedia

    Is still :( (31st July 2016) saying that "Most of these men went to the 23rd Hussars or other units of the 8th Armoured Brigade, or the 29th Armoured Brigade in the 11th Armoured Division"

    ....whereas NHL (None Had Lances) says on p194;

    "We have found no other instance where an armoured Regiment in Normandy was completely broken up as we were and the tank crews scattered among eleven other regiments. No place could be found immediately for nearly half the Regiment (24th Lancers) and they went to holding units or were sent back to the UK. The question remains - even if now unanswerable "Was the disbandment of the 24th Lancers necessary and need the manner of it have been so ruthless?".

    And on p196 of NHL:

    "Naturally tank crews were most in demand and some went to the other two Regiments in the 8th Armoured Brigade, the 4th/7th RDG and the SRY. Others to our old Brigade, the 29th Armoured in the 11th Armoured Division; the 23rd Hussars, the 2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry and the 3rd Royal Tank Regiment; still others to the 1st and 5th R.T.R. in the 22nd Armoured Brigade, 7th Armoured Division and the 44th R.T.R. in the 4th Independent Armoured Brigade. Some went to Delivery Squadrons, holding units and the Armoured Replacement Group to await posting to a unit and some went to various Headquarters at Brigade, Division Corps and 2nd Army.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2017
  7. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Rob

    I've tried to edit the wiki page but, apparently because I didn't quote a precise reference and I'm judged by some jobsworth to not be an 'expert', my edit was promptly removed! Amazing to say the least. Might have another go sometime. Apparently simply 'knowing' is not good enough for the wiki self-styled experts who clearly don't like genuine experts/specialists encroaching on their territory. The daft thing is that I have managed to successfully edit the wiki page in the distant past.

    Steve
     
  8. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I was looking on google re "Bridlington 24th Lancers" with those search terms: Google

    And finding a few interesting links, including this IWM (recording - not currently available online - but does include a description of what it contains) : recording (20946)

    William John Bland Clough


    A British trooper who served as gunner/driver with 24th Lancers and Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry in GB and North West Europe, 1944-1945, including Normandy landings, France, 6/1944; POW in Stalag X-B, Sandbostel, Lower Saxony, Germany, 4/1945.

    There is also IWM audio to listen to here: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80027142

    That deals more with his period as a POW.

    The description of the longer (first) audio looks fascinating though, containing as it does seem to some interesting quotes re. the 24th L:

    REELS 1-7: Recollections of family background, childhood, education and employment in Westmoor and Burradon, Tyne and Wear, GB, 1923-1941.

    REEL 8 Continues: story of being called up and posted to Royal Armoured Corps, 1941: description of civilian employment as carpenter making aeroplane wings; problem of finding way around London; description of journey to Tidworth Camp, Wiltshire.

    REEL 9 Continues: Aspects of training with Royal Armoured Corps in GB, 1941: description of barracks at Tidworth Camp; issued with uniform and kit; method of applying blanco to webbing; sleeping arrangements; opinion of food; innoculations; problem of uniform not fitting; drill; intelligence test; opinion of NAAFI facilities; problem of arm swelling from innoculations; story of punishment by RSM for not polishing cap badge.

    REEL 10 Continues: description of Bren gun training; proficiency in Morse code; route marches; posted to Bovington Camp, Dorset; issued with tropical kit; posted to Catterick Camp, Yorkshire, for further basic training; story of illness caused by innoculations; entered for boxing team; description of camp and facilities; educational classes; learned to drive lorry; description of tank training on Yorkshire moors; story of tank getting stuck in bog; gunnery training at Hornsea; opinion of 2-pounder gun on tank; posted to 24th Lancers, 12/1941. Aspects of training with 24th Lancers in GB, 12/1941-6/1944: issued with cap badge; posted to HQ Sqdn; opinion of Crusader tank; description of tank training at Chippenham Park, Suffolk; story about illiterate trooper Tom Castle; organisation of HQ Sqdn; number of tanks and crew; description of training as tank gunner.

    REEL 11 Continues: opinion of cavalry officers; story of being put on fatigues by Provost Sgt; problem of gun on Crusader being too small; opinion of Sherman tank and problem with operating gun; amusing story about Maj. Anderson; Regt entrained from Newmarket to Bridlington, 1942; story of tanks being named after Four Horsemen of Apocalypse; description of training at Huntley Hall; story of injuring thumb while loading tank with shells; participation in Divisional boxing competition; physical training; description of improvement to gun on Sherman; posted to Dundreggan, Scotland, for further training, 1943; problem of mud; story of helping with potato picking.

    REEL 12 Continues: Regt entrained to Milford-on-Sea, late 1943; description of DD tanks and method of waterproofing; trained with breathing apparatus; role in ferrying new tanks from Slough to Havant; opinion of food at US army camp; secrecy in camp; embarked with tanks aboard LCT; description of crossing from Gosport to France, night of 5-6/Jun/1944. Aspects of operations with 24th Lancers, 8th Armoured Bde in Normandy, France, 6-7/Jun/1944: description of ration packs in tank; problem of LCT not reaching landing beach; description of tanks driving through water onto landing beach; story of tank being hit by shell; description of conditions on landing beach; transferred to Sherman DD tank with Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry, 7/Jun/1944. Aspects of operations with Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry, 8th Armoured Bde in Normandy, France, 7/Jun-16/Aug/1944: use of flail tanks to clear mines; advanced to Bayeux; problem of breaking out of bridgehead.

    REEL 13 Continues: description of being shelled by German nebelwerfers; opinion of air cover from Typhoons; tank concealed in ditch; problem of having to remain in tank for long period; description of Allied artillery barrage; story of Hitler Youth members attacking tanks; attitude to use of flamethrowers on tanks; story of keeping chickens in tank; description of shells landing close to tank; use of shell crater to conceal tank; rations; story about Scottish trooper wounded by shrapnel; story of shell hitting turret of tank; reaction to loss of friends in 24th Lancers.

    REEL 14 Continues: story about using Morse code during training exercise in Bridlington, GB; description of advance across France; story of helping wounded trooper after tank hit by shell at Bergeaux; story of being wounded in foot by shrapnel; story about death of friend Arthur Brooks.

    REEL 15 Continues: various memories of friends in 24th Lancers and Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry; description of medical treatment at field hospital, 8/1944. Aspects of period in GB, 8-12/1944: description of medical treatment at hospitals in Basingstoke, Leeds and Bradford; story about Polish patient; period of convalescence in Halifax; posted back to Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry in Nijmegen, Netherlands, 12/1944.

    REEL 16 Continues: Aspects of operations with Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry, 8th Armoured Bde in Netherlands and Germany, 12/1944-4/1945: weather conditions; role as gunner/driver; nature of terrain; role of Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry reinforcing US forces; rest period; use of searchlights to find way at night; description of arrival in Cleves, Germany; problem of damage to tank; story of looting goods including accordion and motorcycle; opinion of billet in house; story of using debris to form crossing point over river; story of using smoke screen to cross bridge over river.

    REEL 17 Continues: story of large number of German troops surrendering; description of crossing Rhine on rafts at Wesel; construction of Bailey bridge by Royal Engineers; story of finding safe full of money; description of journey to German border; role in liberation of Hengelo, Netherlands, 3/Apr/1945; story of watching female collaborators having heads shaved; description of crossing Dortmund-Ems Canal; organisation of tanks; position as third tank at front of column; opinion of 17-pounder gun; nature of terrain; story of being ambushed and captured by Germans at Lastrup, Germany, 12/Apr/1945.

    REEL 18 Continues: Aspect of period as POW in Germany, 12-29/Apr/1945:amusing story of interrogation by Prussian officer; story of meeting RAF pilot and wireless operator from own tank; description of walk to Bremen; story of receiving medical treatment for blistered feet on German Red Cross train; story about Gestapo officer; description of Typhoon strafing Red Cross train; taken to prison in Cuxhaven; description of conditions in solitary confinement cell and problem of claustrophobia; story about visit to German guard’s home.

    REEL 19 Continues: story of having drink with German farmers in pub; description of walk to POW camp Stalag X-B, Sandbostel, Lower Saxony; story of obtaining receipt for money at guardhouse; description of camp, accommodation and sanitary facilities; wide range of nationalities in camp; opinion of living conditions; story of talking to Russian officer; attitude to treatment of Russian POWs; received Red Cross parcels; story of Russian POWs shot while trying to escape; problem of typhus and scabies in camp; story of infecting daughter with typhus bacteria on return home; description of camp being liberated by British troops, 29/Apr/1945; medical examination; flew from Hanover back to GB, 5/1945. Aspects of period in GB, 1945-1946: description of disinfection process; problem of experiencing post-traumatic stress; posted to rehabilitation centre at Crawley; reason for staying in Army; posted to Staffordshire Yeomanry as carpenter.

    REEL 20 Continues: posted to transit camp at Newmarket after Staffordshire Yeomanry disbanded; posted to Bovington Camp, Dorset; duties in technical stores; demobilized at Aldershot, 1946.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  9. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Rob

    Bill Clough was an amazing guy. It was Bill who cheered the loudest when I took up the reigns of the 24th Lancers Old Comrades Association and he was a real character. He became, I believe, a successful building contractor after the War and took his cheque book everywhere; they even buried it with him so he would be OK in the afterlife.
     
  10. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Re. Lance Corporal Stan Haygarth

    Who is listed here: WW2Talk

    There is a nice pic on the cover of this 58 page book: Google

    As well as some detail (according to the script on the book cover):

    "focusing primarily on Stan Haygarth's life as Cavalryman in the 24th Lancers and the Royal Tank Regiment in World War II"
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  11. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Re. Lieutenant Frank Fuller

    KIA 5/4/1945 - 243186 Lieutenant Frank William Fuller, age 33. (ex B squadron 24th Lancers).

    And also: ex 24th Lancers

    KIA - 5/4/1945 - 7927852 L/Corporal Arthur George Axtell, age 34 (ex B squadron 24th Lancers).

    Plus - WIA - 5/4/1945 - Trooper F.Oxley (ex 24th Lancers).

    (??? presumably Trooper F.Oxley was ex B squadron too Rm ???)

    There is a quote here from a thread titled: "11th-armoured-division-tank-casualties"

    11th Armoured Division, Tank Casualties, 1945
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  12. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    7955080
    Trooper Ronald Quinn aged 23
    KIA 17th June 1944
    Jerusalem war cemetery
    Posted with kind permission by Carl Shilleto
    And www.fallenheroesofnormandy.org
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
  13. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Re. "Major Roy Bennett" who (also) has a good few mentions in NHL...

    Roy-Bennet.jpg

    Was browsing... and came across these (usual mix of fairly widely varying prices for NHL!)...
    9780951071809: None Had Lances: The Story of the 24th Lancers - AbeBooks - Willis, Leonard: 0951071807

    With one book having images of:

    Book Description 1987. Hardcover. Book Condition: Very Good. Dust Jacket Condition: Very Good. 1st Edition. Signed by the author on cover page, inscription by ink on cover page. Please see uploaded pictures. For more information please contact us. Signed by Author(s). Bookseller Inventory # 093713

    None Had Lances : The Story of the 24th Lancers by Wills, Leonard: 9780951071809 Hardcover, 1st Edition, Signed by Author(s) - Hurlingham Books

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  14. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Rob (rm)

    Well spotted. Leonard Willis signed many/most copies of NHL but that's the first time I've knowingly seen Roy Bennetts signature. Top wack price but then, if you don't ask......
     
  15. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    My own copy of NHL is "sans anything" - I think as a "start" I'd have opted for one that was "not written in" - but it does make one wonder what future ephemera or notings in marginalia might make it into the "history and lore"...

    NHL.JPG
    My grandfather's war records were scattered about with a variety of signatures of those he served with.

    As is sometimes the case with signatures though, these were not always easy (for me) to read and it was a case of slow realisation in some instances...

    24th_L_Signatures.JPG

    i.e. of the (I guess) Luddington and Arbuthnot on here. Both of whom were mentioned quite a bit in NHL. I think though I have a few more to pick my way through :pipe: So other instances of 24th L's various scripts in docs etc. might one day help future WW2 sleuths towards more varied discipherments albeit it does get more and more arcane and niche - not that that has to ever necessarily stop anyone!

    All the best,

    Rm,
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
  16. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Rm you certainly did a better job of deciphering the 24L war diaries then I was ever going to do
    I've been trying to decipher my great grandads ww1 medical records for ages he had something wrong with his feet/legs leading to his medical discharge in 1914.
    But I'm up against a doctors handwriting .
    I did see a copy of NHL on ebay a few months ago in the description it said many pages had handwritten notes. I never thought about it at the time but that could have been a little gem depending on who owned it previously ( hopefully not a doctor)

    Regards

    Shaun
     
    Ramiles likes this.
  17. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Hi Shaun,

    I did see this: None Had Lances: The Story of the 24th Lancers by Willis, Leonard: 9780951071809 Paperback - WorldofBooks

    Among the "current set" at: 9780951071809: None Had Lances: The Story of the 24th Lancers - AbeBooks - Willis, Leonard: 0951071807

    With:
    Description:
    A readable copy of the book which may include some defects such as highlighting and notes. Cover and pages may be creased and show discolouration.Bookseller Inventory

    Albeit no corresponding scans etc. (shame :blush:) and the "may include" quote - along with the "-these are-" i.e. "defects" :-P

    The "Roy Bennett" one (above) particularly caught my eye as he is mentioned quite a few times along with some biographical info. actually in NHL - hence perhaps??? as SDP says "Top wack price" - though of course - does the seller know this??? is this really "the" Roy Bennett - p198 of NHL says he retired to the Cameron Highlands, Malaysia. Who are Jan/Ian and Elizabeth etc. etc. - as I say niche, niche, niche! Would be interesting too if "he" had liberally scattered this (or "his" own other copy etc.) etc. with his own notes.... albeit I sadly (I don't think!!!) would be paying £125 etc. i.e. Top wack price to ferret it all out o_O ho, ho, ho!

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016
    norton 407545 likes this.
  18. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    NHL seems to be going through a bit of a sales surge at the moment....two copies on eBay! Both at what I see as ridiculous prices....but a buyer would no doubt see it otherwise if they sell at that price.
     
  19. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Definitely a case for anyone wanting it to put In An offer that's what I did got a nice signed one for £35 and I think the seller forgot to charge me postage however I guess they will sell for £70+ because if I'd not been able to find a reasonable priced one I'd still have been content with a copy costing double what I'd paid worth every penny
     
  20. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    In "Dad's War" by Andy Cropper... https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dads-War-Andy-Cropper/dp/0952422204
    In the area of Geilenkirchen...the loss of one of the "B" squad SRY tanks "Blue Light Special" is noted on 19/11/44 with its tank commander Lt. Charles and two others of its crew, Keith Cornish and Fred Gasson. This tank was apparently hit by a German 88.

    ex 24th Lancers KIA were...

    Keith Cornish... Casualty Details

    and Fred Gasson... Casualty Details

    ex 24th Lancers WIA were...

    Trooper Richardson - driver (Ritchie) was badly burned whilst bailing out.
    Trooper Tutin -co-driver (Toots) was also wounded there.

    See also: 24th Lancers Regimental Nominal Roll and Postings August 1944
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2016

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