2nd Bn Royal Warwickshire Regiment June 6th-7th 1944

Discussion in 'British Army Units - Others' started by Will T, Aug 9, 2016.

  1. Arty

    Arty Member

    Michel,

    'Nice' shot of Landrecy - it gives some validation to the theory that it exploded on the evening of 06Jun44...

    Arty
     
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  2. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Unit applied vehicle names weren't unique. While 9 Battery had a good reason to name an OP vehicle after the action at Landrecy (Landrecies) 1914, they weren't the only unit there. The Coldstream, Grenadiers and Irish Guards all took part in that action. 2nd Irish Guards in particular might have enough tanks and few enough battle honours to have both Landrecy I and Landrecy II. Landrecy 2 has an armoured RAC flash which wouldn't at first sight make it an obvious RA OP Tank.
     
  3. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Re Part I

    What exactly did is meant by "attached to?" He did not write "accompanied by"
    At what time in this 12 hour operation is he referring to? It did not specify "the initial assault"

    If we choose to interpret this as referring to M10 SP Anti tank guns being used as assult guns , we have to assume that the historian is ignoring the support from 9th and 16th SP Field batteries which were attached to 2nd Warwicks and the reports from CO 7 Field Regiment BC 16 and the FOO that at least 16 Battery fired in support of the battalion during the day.

    We also have to ignore contemporary reports that no vehicles accompanied the 2nd Warwicks in their initial assault.

    Re Part II

    I like your avatar. As a fan of RA SP Anti tank gunners I am delighted to have inspired its selection.

    My doctrinal argument is not against the use of M10s in direct fire role in the assault, for which they tended to be used in the absence of other armour. (1) However, this was not the case on 7th June, where the Staffordshire Yeomanry and all other vehicles, were kept north of the anti tank obstacle. (In case you had forgotten, this is why the 2nd Warwicks F Echlon vehicles did not follow the infantry and the reason they took the road and ran into an ambush. )

    My objection is that two M1os might poop off HE and Smoke in a semi indirect role in support of a battalion somewhere in a wood which no one else is engaging because no one knows where the friendly forces are. This would be unsound and irresponsible.

    It may be that they were there all along and no one wrote about them. But Regimental Historians are far from infallible. Who exactly was the 2nd Warwicks Regimental Historian and what sources did he use?

    Re 1 There is a medal citation I am trying to chase down for a sergeant M10 late in the Normandy campaign who tanes his M10 into a village in support of the infantry after the tanks don't turn up. Do you know who this is?
     
  4. Of course you are right in that tank names weren't unique. However I do not know any other instance of that name for a vehicle (which is not to say there were none).

    Quite the opposite! Illogical as it may be, it seems that only vehicles of "artillery" units in the larger sense, i.e. RA (M7, M10, Sherman tanks...) of 3 Br Inf Div and the RMASG (Centaurs and Sherman GPO tanks for sure, possibly their other vehicles too), carried the RAC flash on D Day. I have yet to see a D Day or Normandy photo of this RAC flash on a vehicle not belonging either to the RA or to the RMASG.
    Its is therefore precisely a very strong indication that LANDRECY II was part of a 3 Div RA unit. This plus Capt Bruce's narrative make it all but certain that it was indeed 'B' Tp's OP tank.

    Examples:

    [​IMG]
    THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE UNITED KINGDOM 1939-45. © IWM (H 37994)
    IWM Non Commercial Licence

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    D-DAY - BRITISH FORCES DURING THE INVASION OF NORMANDY 6 JUNE 1944. © IWM (B 5032)
    IWM Non Commercial Licence

    [​IMG]
    D-DAY - BRITISH FORCES DURING THE INVASION OF NORMANDY 6 JUNE 1944. © IWM (B 5033)
    IWM Non Commercial Licence

    [​IMG]
    D-DAY - BRITISH FORCES DURING THE INVASION OF NORMANDY 6 JUNE 1944. © IWM (B 5086)
    IWM Non Commercial Licence

    [​IMG]
    D-DAY - BRITISH FORCES DURING THE INVASION OF NORMANDY 6 JUNE 1944. © IWM (B 5088)
    IWM Non Commercial Licence

    [​IMG]
    THE BRITISH ARMY IN NORMANDY 1944. © IWM (B 5454)
    IWM Non Commercial Licence

    RMASG 1 Bty Centaur IV CS - ASSEGAI T.185096 - Caen Memorial - colour - MEMO_PHOT_01829.wmg.jpg http://caen.armadillo.fr/app/photopro.sk/caen/detail?docid=40207&rsid=144980&pos=57&psort=reference:D&pitemsperpage=200&ppage=1&pbase=*&target=doclist#sessionhistory-ready

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
  5. Arty

    Arty Member

    Chaps,

    Without knowing for sure (as yet) that M10’s were present on the morning of the 7th with the Warwicks, we nevertheless have a ‘picture’ of the situation as it unfolded. Comms had failed at precisely the wrong time & the postponement of the attack did not get to the forward Companies of the Warwicks. Lt Colonel Herdon apparently (and understandably) watched with some alarm as his B & C Companies made the long exposed walk up the hill towards Lebisey Wood. As we see with many of the actions in which M10’s were involved in supporting the infantry, they were entirely ‘spontaneous’. If indeed Lt Thomas and B Trp 41 AT Bty were present on the morning of the 7th with the Warwicks, it is entirely feasible that Colonel Herdon request that they put (some) fire into Lebisey Wood over the heads of his forward companies as they were still moving forward.

    Arty

    ps. Sheldrake, I agree (believe it or not!), Regimental Histories can indeed be very 'dodgy' - a comment which can be applied to War Diaries, reports, memoirs et al. Regarding the M10 Sgt winning the medal - some more clues would be nice please ie. month or location or unit???
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2016
  6. Arty

    Arty Member

    And more Chaps!

    I’m still determined to establish whether or not there’s any voracity to the Warwicks Regimental Historian’s comments…

    I’ve now dug up several sources which have extracts from Lt SP Thomas’ memoirs (from printed matter in my collection and ‘virtual’ matter on the net). The latest piece of this particular puzzle refers to B Trp 41 Bty moving forward again (from their overnight harbour with the Staffies) before first light on the 07June, and rejoining the KSLI in the Bieville area. Now we’re getting time critical. Before first light on 07June 185 Inf Bde was still sitting where it got to the night before (ie. Norfolks on Rover – just east of Beuville, Warwicks in Blainville & the KSLI forward in Bieville). Thus around 0500hrs we have three M10’s up front again – quite probably with a ‘lovely’ view up to Lebisey Wood – after all it was their principal (but not only) task to keep enemy armour at bay - and that’s where enemy armour had come from the afternoon before (Major Robin Dunn BC of 16 Bty 7 Fd Regt later described the situation that developed, stating: “We sat glaring at the Germans in Lebisey Wood and they glared back at us”).

    At that time, what should have been a respectable fire plan to support the Warwicks, was being put together. By 0800hrs the Warwicks had started shuffling up to the start line (only to be delayed by sniping and mortaring). Around 0845hrs the situation began to turn to ‘mud’. Again, whether or not a couple of B Trp’s M10’s joined the Warwicks or stayed put with the KSLI, it puts them in a position to put some covering fire into Lebisey Wood.

    Excruciatingly, I haven’t yet managed to find Lt Thomas’ full account!

    Arty
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2016
  7. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    ....you are still willing to assume that when the history refers to "only support was two guns " we should believe this account refers to two M10s guns which do not feature in anyone else's account and does not does not refer to the Gunners who were there from SP artillery unit and brought down fire in support of 2nd Warwicks.

    Sorry to appear grumpy, but as a (much later) successor to Captain Bruce as BK of the Irish battery, I find it disconcerting to read the enthusiasm with which you downplay the role played by my own battery.

    9 Bty's BC and the two FOO parties really did walk forward with their man pack radios, struggling to communicate with their guns. These men were attached to 2nd Warwicks and and in support. They really did bring down artillery fire onto the back end of Lebisy wood. Captain Talbot was in a ditch at the edge of the wood for most of the day. His radio messages rebroadcast via his tank was the only communications between 2nd Warwicks and the rest of the Brigade. This is a real story and not speculation.

    Why are so keen to ignore the discrepancy between the historian writing "the ONLY" support and the obvious presence of these gunners? Or do you seriously think that the Warwick's historian did not think that indirect fire counted as "support." Is this a function of a "World of tanks" mindset?
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2016
  8. Will T

    Will T Member

    Gentlemen, if I may interject here. I have been watching the replies to this thread with great interest as they have explored trains of thought that I had never considered, and looked at topics that I personally knew nothing about. For this I would like to thank all involved, this has been a great source of information which puts names and accounts to areas that were, with the information I had, a grey haze of uncertainty with conflicting information.

    Sheldrake, I think the information you have put forward has been very clear and concise, definitively proving RA boots (and tanks) were on the ground with the Warwicks at the end of June 6th and during large parts, if not the entirety of the 7th, which is not mentioned in ANY literature sources I have access to that describe the events at Lebisey, when I come to put pen to paper I plan to rectify that using this research. Any further literature and/ or pictures you could provide or point me to would continue to be very helpful and help me add another layer to this already complex, multi unit action.

    What I have taken from Arty is that, with the information available, there is the possibility of another unit partaking in the action. The possibility of units like SP tank destroyers had not occurred to me, the geography and timeline would seem to put them in the right place but would like to see if we have anything in writing which may shed further light on this (good luck finding Lt Thomas' account).

    I want to get the fullest possible picture of the action, including any servicemen 0r women from any of the British armed forces active in that area. This information must of course be backed up with corroborating quotable sources.

    Again I want to thank everyone involved for their contributions so far and look forward to what else could be added, most of my initial questions have been answered. I am still trying to pin down the missing carrier platoon from 2 Btln WRW S Coy and I am still trying to gain information on the KSLI's involvement in supporting the attack on the 7th.

    Thanks!
     
  9. Arty

    Arty Member

    Sheldrake,

    YOU have made this a ‘blue on blue’. You need to cease firing before have bore premature!

    I’ve never dismissed the role of 9 Bty’s role in this affair – what fire support they provided came later in the day and almost certainly saved the Warwicks & Norfolks from a complete catastrophe.

    Beware of making “World of tanks” comments – my full time service was in a Field Regiment of the Regular Army.

    It’s just that I don’t wear Regimental Blinkers!

    Bah Humbug
    Arty!!!
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2016
  10. Arty

    Arty Member

    Will,

    Again, interesting thread. Once I've confirmed, either way, just what the "SP guns" were that the Warwick's Regimental Historian was referring to I'll get back to you (though it may take a while....).

    Back to the bigger picture of the days events... The Staffordshire Yeomanry's War Diary states on the 7th: "...'A' Sqn. remained in the area BIEVILLE and throughout the day supported attacks by 2 Warwicks and 1 Norfolks, on LEBISEY. The enemy appeared to have reinforced strongly during the previous night and all the attacks were unsuccessful the infantry suffering heavy casualties." That's a word for word extract from the Staffies Diary, which does not provide any specific detail on just how they supported the Warwicks or Norfolks that day. Though it does add that they stayed to the north of the "natural A/Tk obstacle" (which meant the PBI was left 'right in it' - until the 'drop shorts' lent a hand). Perhaps the Staffies Regimental History has more info(!)

    Regards
    Arty

    Editors note!

    Will!

    I didn't have the specific pages of the Warwick's Regimental History - only those excerpts you posted on the first page of this thread. That is until today. Have a look at the bottom of page 84...the reference to the two SP guns is apparently no accident! As the leading Companies of the Warwicks approached the woods we have..."Now came serious trouble. The village and wood of Lebisey had in fact been occupied the previous evening by a battalion of the 125th Panzer Grenadiers (in the 21st Panzer Division), a fresh unit of formidable fighting quality. During the night it had dug in, in well-sited defensive positions (aided in this task, it seems, by the presence of some existing dug-outs that had already been prepared for some such emergency). Relatively unaffected by the attentions of the two S.P. guns, the enemy watched B and C Companies approach the wood. When these were within a couple of hundred yards, the Germans opened up with all their small-arms."
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2016
  11. Methinks the lot of you have got it all wrong regarding the two SP guns: they were neither M7 from a Fd Regt nor M10 from an A tk Regt, but... German 105 SP guns captured intact by the STAFFS YEO on the 7th. See their War Diary (bottom of page) here:
    Staffordshire Yeomanry D-Day War Diary

    No. 1 Tp. "A" Sqn. destroyed a Staff Car in the LE LANDEL area and machine-gunned a party of 10 Germans. The only survivor surrendered. They may have been manning two 105mm S.P. guns which were found intact and which had moved up during the night.

    Michel :-P
     
  12. Will T

    Will T Member

    Arty, I had come across the problem the attack encountered with the anti tank ditch before, with Staffs Yeo negotiating it successfully on D-Day evening with the KSLI at Lebisey prior to their withdrawal overnight. The anti tank obstacle, if memory serves, lies roughly 200+ yards from the north side of the wood. Due to this, certainly during the first few hours of the assault at least, the only direct 'tank support' on scene seems to be the OP Sherman that Arty has mentioned. I have a research trip to Normandy planned for October so after that I'm planning to break out all the information I have so far and start putting a timeline/ rough geographical location to the units so can properly start reconstructing the action with info and pictures. Once that's put together I can put it up pictures here for people to voice their views

    Michel, hadn't actually picked up the Staffs Yeo capturing that equipment, if you find any pictures or further info supporting it put it up! I would wonder if they would use said equipment, I imagine crewing it and keeping a supply of shells for it a challenge, although I know there is evidence of similar things happening (I believe a captured Panther was used by a unit in the Guards Armoured Division for example).
     
  13. Arty

    Arty Member

    Michel,
    A feel as though you might be taking the mickey! ;) However your find is interesting nevertheless - it would be nice to know at what time of the day the Staffies captured the two German "105mm SP guns" (if of course they were actually 105mm, given the poor standard of enemy weapons recognition - another 'emotive' subject!).

    Will,
    Check your PM...

    Regards
    Arty
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
  14. Arty

    Arty Member

    Chaps,

    From “The History of the Norfolk Regiment”(by Lt Comdr PK Kemp & Francis Loraine Petre OBE)……

    “The following day, June 8th, was fairly quiet, with the battalion concentrated at "Norfolk House. During the day orders were received to hold the line from the Caen Canal to the westward, between the villages of Blainville and Beauregard, covering the left forward flank of the brigade. " B " Coy (Maj. E.A. Cooper-Key), with the three sections of Carriers, a detachment of pioneers, and two S.P. anti tank guns, was sent out, the whole being under the command of Maj. H.M Wilson, Second-in-Command….”

    The hamlet of Beauregard was basically the start-line for the Warwick's attack on the morning of 07June. On the next day the Norfolks apparently had the support of “two S.P. anti tank guns” in the very same vicinity. Probably just a coincidence though…

    Arty
     
  15. Arty

    Arty Member

    Mein Damen und Herren,

    For anyone who has previously enjoyed reading this debate/thread here’s some more info on those mysterious “two S.P. guns attached to the 2nd Battalion” - mentioned by Marcus Cunliffe, the Warwick’s Regimental Historian…

    We have an eyewitness account of what were almost certainly two M10’s in action near Lebisey Wood on the morning of 07June44 – this eyewitness was none other than Captain Alastair James Macleod Bannerman 463860 – Officer Commanding the Anti-Tank Platoon of the 2nd Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment. Captain Bannerman kept a detailed diary - all the extracts quoted below come from the book “If I Don’t Come Home – Letters From D-Day” by Alastair Bannerman. It is no surprise that Marcus Cunliffe quoted Capt Bannerman as one of his sources in the Warwick’s Regimental History.

    Capt Bannerman was fully aware of what an M10 looked like - however, in his diary he didn’t use the term “M10” – he repeatedly described them as “S.P. guns”, “self-propelled guns” etc. (see below). Yes, M7 Priests were also generally described as “self-propelled guns”, however on the morning of 07Jun44 Capt Bannerman was 4km away from the nearest M7.

    By referring to Capt Bannerman’s diary and the 3rd Division’s landing tables we can ascertain that at least one M10 was loaded on the same LCT that he crossed the channel in on 06June (although the vehicle weight he stated was not correct).

    From Capt Bannerman’s diary:

    3rd June …We moved down to the hards and are all now well packed away in our LCT…Some difficulties which arose during the loading of an 18-ton S.P. gun caused us delay…”

    Later that day…

    “I must now have a look whether this S.P. has been properly loaded into the boat. I am O.C. Troops for this craft, having the most vehicles loaded into the boat.”

    The First Tide landing table (issued in March1944) shows us that four of the Warwick’s 6 Pounders were planned to arrive on the same LCT’s that carried B Troop, 41 Anti- Tank Battery’s M10’s….

    On LCT4 LTIN 338 2 Uni carriers + 2 6pdr Warwicks, &, 2 M10’s & 1 carrier of 41 Bty

    On LCT4 LTIN 339 2 Uni carriers + 2 6pdr Warwicks, &, 2 M10’s & 1 carrier of 41 Bty

    Looking more closely at the details on the Landing Tables and Capt Bannerman’s diary it seems probable that he was on board LTIN 338, which was due to land at 11.35 AM on Queen White.

    Back to Capt Bannerman’s diary…

    4th June …We are at anchor and a stiff breeze blows and the sea is rather rough. We have succeeded in bringing this monster of a gun on board and the deck is now crammed full of self-propelled guns [sic], jeeps, carrier, guns…”

    5th June …Operation Overlord begins tomorrow…H-hour is 7.25 and we land at 11.35…”

    Capt Bannerman apparently wrote about the events of D-Day early on the morning of 07June ie. just prior to the Warwicks moving on Lebisey…

    “7th June …D-Day is over…When we came in close we could see that the beach was completely choc-a –bloc with vehicles. We had to steer over to the east and to look round for a bit…Down with the landing ramp and when, after long last, the S.P. gun was off I got my two guns out…”

    What follows is part of Capt Bannerman’s description of the Warwicks action at Lebisey Wood that day. The confusion caused by the communications breakdown is also apparent in what he wrote…

    “I went off in my carrier to see if I could get my anti-tank guns across a stream in a valley that lay below Lebisey…..I decided the valley was impassable for carriers and guns and returned to report to my C.O. whom I found crouched in a ditch because of those blasted snipers. He seemed very worried as no fire support from the Navy could be forthcoming till an hour after our time to advance, and no artillery could be contacted, but he decided to press on with only two S.P. guns in support.

    One company sent a runner back to say they were held up on the way to the start line, so he set off to see what was happening. I rounded up my six guns and eventually joined the C.O. again at the RV above the infantry start line to await orders. The four infantry companies were already on the move, slowly advancing up a cornfield bare of cover towards the wood on the ridge of Lebisey, which lay between us and Caen.

    It was a bad beginning to a disastrous day.

    We expected little resistance, and I could see the small brown figures climbing the open slope steadily and bravely. It was all rather touching and hopeful. The C.O. was walking about the skyline in a way that seemed to ask for trouble but he appeared quite unconcerned and ignored the mortar fire which kept dropping sporadically round us. The two S.P. guns were firing smoke and HE into the wood, and all seemed to be going fairly well after all.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In fact the M10’s of 20th Anti-Tank Regiment were kept busy in the following days – working closely with the forward elements of infantry battalions. Here’s a few examples…On 07 June the South Lancs moved to secure Plumetot & Cresserons, their war diary tells us: “B and C Coys followed up, mounted on SP guns for consolidation” (in this case it was probably I &/or O Troop(s) involved). On 08June 2 M10’s were apparently in action supporting the attack on “TROUT” ie. the German strongpoint at Lion Sur Mer that was still holding out on the coast. On 09June 101 Battery supported 2nd RUR – one of it’s 101 Battery's 6pdr troops being on the start-line whilst O Troop ie. it’s M10 Troop went forward.

    There was nothing unusual, whatsoever, in a section of two of M10’s being on the start-line of the Warwick’s attack on 07June.

    And just in case anyone’s still struggling with doctrine, here are just a couple of lines from a publication entitled:

    “INFANTRY TRAINING, PART VI, THE ANTI-TANK PLATOON, 1943”…

    24. An anti-tank troop R.A. will normally be allotted to the advanced guard…

    30. Protection during the assault…The battalion commander should also indicate the area from which he wants any R.A. anti-tank guns that may be under his command to operate, together with the tasks he wants them to carry out….


    Grüße an alle,
    Arty
     
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  16. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Thank you. I had not heard of Bannerman's account. These have to be the two SP guns referred to in the Warwick's history.

    Here is the Bigot map dated May 1944 incorporating the defence works known before the invasion. As you can see it shows the anti tank ditch mentioned in the texts. Where do you think the two M10s were deployed?
    Libesy woods .jpg
     
  17. Will T

    Will T Member

    I'm going to hopefully hike over the battlefield in the next month as I'd like to get 'eyes on' to see what the lay of the land really is as maps and google earth do not do it justice. Best guess at M10 deployment for now would be Bauregard just south of the eastern end of the stream (I seem to remember wording to the effects of near some buildings for the SP guns but without my reference books in front of me I couldn't confirm). Nice one on tracking these down Arty thank you, nice to be able to pin info down.

    Sheldrake that's a damn good map, will be taking that with me on my travels!
     
  18. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Last edited: May 16, 2017
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  19. Adrian Lee

    Adrian Lee Member

     
  20. Adrian Lee

    Adrian Lee Member

    Dear All
    Have just found your posts regarding the 2nd Warwicks on June 7th. My father Jo Lee was leading one of the vehicles blown up. I have written an article on the amazing story whereby I found the Male Nurse in whose arms he died. I have videos of Graham Rogers telling the story of how he was caught by the Germans in Lebisey Wood and went on to treat all the Warwicks injured in this futile attack. It makes great reading and may add to you understanding of these days. I will try and upload this file which I am currently rewriting for my memoirs.
     

    Attached Files:

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