2nd Grenadier Guards Execute German Snipers

Discussion in '1940' started by Drew5233, Nov 2, 2009.

Tags:
  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Another interesting ditty from Dunkirk-Retreat to Victory...

    Apparently in the 3rd Division Sector the 2nd Grenadier Guards were fighting around Helchin and the town was infiltrated by a number of German snipers dressed in civilian clothes. Having been sniped at from behind from the Dyle and the Dendre eventually rounded up 17 of these Germans and shot them.

    Does anyone have any further information on this incident?

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  2. idler

    idler GeneralList

    "..Okhegem itself was found to be full of German sympathizers, who caused the Grenadiers great discomfort from the rear. R.S.M. Pratt was among those who were severely wounded by these fifth columnisits. Half the Battalion were therefore obliged to turn their backs on the river and search the town for snipers..." Forbes The Grenadier Guards in the War of 1939-1945 Vol I.

    It doesn't say what happened to these fifth columnists but when they get to Helchin: "...the Grenadiers were more concerned with the ubiquitous civilian snipers, of whom the 2nd Battalion executed no fewere than seventeen in one day."

    It doesn't seem to have been an isolated incident and there is no suggestion that the snipers were Germans soldiery in civvies. There are some other accounts in Guards VC IIRC.
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Cheers,

    I can't say I noticed this incident in Guards VC (Page?). I wonder if they were actually civilians or German soldiers or Germans dressed as civilians?
     
  4. L J

    L J Senior Member

    "..Okhegem itself was found to be full of German sympathizers, who caused the Grenadiers great discomfort from the rear. R.S.M. Pratt was among those who were severely wounded by these fifth columnisits. Half the Battalion were therefore obliged to turn their backs on the river and search the town for snipers..." Forbes The Grenadier Guards in the War of 1939-1945 Vol I.

    It doesn't say what happened to these fifth columnists but when they get to Helchin: "...the Grenadiers were more concerned with the ubiquitous civilian snipers, of whom the 2nd Battalion executed no fewere than seventeen in one day."

    It doesn't seem to have been an isolated incident and there is no suggestion that the snipers were Germans soldiery in civvies. There are some other accounts in Guards VC IIRC.
    If the village in question is Okegem in Belgium ,it is very unlikeky that this happened (Okegem had 1800 inhabitants ,and I do not think there was any German sympatisant (if they were any at Okegem in 1944 (or 1940 ? the text is not clear )that was foolish enough to shoot on allied soldiers . Btw with which weapons ? )
    I think that even the Grenadier Guards were not immune to the fifth column psychose .
     
  5. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Does the author give a source for this in his chapter notes?
     
  6. L J

    L J Senior Member

    I have some additional information ,but the source is maybe-probably biased :the German investigation commission on allied war crimes (gooling on 'Okegem in ww ii ):eek:n saturday 18 may 1940 1 civilian was shot (no further information ),120 civilians were expelled from their houses and put together ,if there were 17 casualties,the Germans would have mentioned . I know people from the region and nobody ever talked about .
     
  7. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Does the author give a source for this in his chapter notes?

    No, it's all very matter-of-fact reporting of what was in war diaries and personal accounts.

    References on Guards VC, working backwards across this period:
    p91 - Gdsm Rice suspects civilian wearing jackboots. Man arrested and shots heard later that night.
    p92 - 19 May 3 GREN GDS relief 'harried' by sniper and tommy gun fire, does not imply they were civilian
    p95 - 19 May Mme Soldenal arrested as a spy
    p97 - 20 May COLDM GDS bring suspects to Bde HQ
    p98 - 20 May 2 NORFOLK quell 'demonstration' in Froidmont
     
  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I remember reading page 91 now you mention it. There is also a mention of a French Officer giving false directions in the book and he was shot too !
     
  9. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    sorry idler, I meant Andy in his book.
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Sos Owen not that I recall. He does quote sources in the book but not on this incident (I've thrown the post-it note away now that marked the page)
     
  11. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    well check the bloody index then!!!
    ;)
     
  12. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    God you're soooooooooooooooooooooooooo Grumpy :lol:
     
  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Found it and there is no ref quoted :)
     
  14. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    From 2nd Battalion Grenadier Guards War Diary dated 20th May at Helchin:

    During the morning it had been given out in the town that the civilian population must be evacuated by 1400hrs. There was considerable sniping and many of the telephone wires were tapped or cut either by parachute troops dressed as civilians or by 5th columnists. Three of these were executed in the morning.

    After 1400hrs all civilians were ordered arrested and a search was made of the town, resulting in some 14 men being found in possession of firearms or ammunition. These were also executed.
     
  15. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    From 2nd Battalion Grenadier Guards War Diary dated 20th May at Helchin:


    See Idler's post #2.
    ;)
    It gets mentioned in the Regt History
     
  16. lostinspace

    lostinspace Junior Member

    Thought I would revive this old thread as I am reading the1940 section of "The Grenadier Guards in the War of 1939-1945" and came across this account referring to the 2nd Bn. (7th Guards Bde., 3rd Division) in reserve west of the Dyle around Winzele (sp.?) and their encounters with fifth columnists (page 18): "One example of this carefully planned organization made a great impression on the Battalion. The occupants of the farm where their headquarters was lodged decided to leave the building as the German shelling became more intense. Madame, who had greeted the Grenadiers two days before with warmth and a flood of passable English, now bade farewell to her cows, horses and guests, and left in tears. Two hours later the headquarters was very heavily and accurately shelled. Their suspicion aroused, the Grenadiers searched the immediate neighbourhood and found that arrows, pointing directly towards the house, had been ploughed into all the adjoining fields. Brigade Headquarters, a mile behind, had been similarly indicated to spotting aircraft by arrows scythed out of the crops."
    Since the 7th Brigade arrived around Louvain on the 13th of May and the Germans appeared on the other side of the Dyle on the night of the 14th/15th it seems to me that there wouldn't have been a lot of time available for a number of Belgian farmers to have ploughed and scythed sign posts all over the landscape (assuming that they would have known where the various headquarters were located). I would guess that there were some incidents of sabotage etc during the German invasion; after all, Wallonian volunteers served on the Eastern Front, first under the Heer's command, later as part of the S.S., but I really doubt that the instances mentioned above were as widespread as indicated.

    Regards,
    Dave
     
  17. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    The arrows in the corn is a familiar trope from WW1, along with sheets hung in 'suspicious' places, 'mysterious' lights and so forth. Coupled with the fifth column thing, the effects of which I believe were and have been greatly exaggerated, add in the utter shock of the oncoming Blitzkrieg and subsequent retreat and you have a pretty heady mix of circumstances. I wouldn't be surprised if some people unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time received summary injustice.
     
  18. JCB

    JCB Senior Member

    Seen more than a few mentions of ' suspect' civilians being shot in BEF accounts .
    All quite matter of fact and to them not a big deal in the massive death and destruction all around at the time.
     
  19. battleofassche

    battleofassche Well-Known Member

    Here is a Belgian account of events in Okegem:

    Heemkring Okegem

    Go to the section titled: De slag van Dender 18-19 Mei 1940 for details of the killings.
     

Share This Page