3 and 220 squadrons

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by Nigel Packham, Aug 1, 2022.

  1. Nigel Packham

    Nigel Packham Member

    My uncle, Raymond Reeves, served as a flight engineer with these squadrons, from 1943-6. He flew with the following members: Jim Straker, Norm Grimmer(?), George Pratt, Ted Roe, Brian Wilkinson, Bruce Pease, Dave Lindsay, Bruce Miller and Jim Eckert. George Pratt is from Peace River, Alberta.
    Any information regarding my uncle or those that knew him would be very much appreciated..?
     
  2. P-Squared

    P-Squared Well-Known Member

    There is some confusion here, perhaps? 3 Squadron flew fighters (Typhoons from 1943), but 220 Sqn was anti-submarine by then. So, 3 Sqn seems impossible - unless he was filling some sort of non-flying role. Did he get commissioned from the ranks (groundcrew with 3 Sqn, perhaps?) and become a flight engineer, eventually with 220 Sqn?
    Do you have any more details? Rank(s)? Service Number?
     
  3. Markyboy

    Markyboy Member

    Seconded regarding 3 Squadron. If he was groundcrew you might want to look at the book 'View from the Office' by Ron Pottinger, who was a pilot at that time. Plenty of pictures and anecdotes about the squadron.
     
    Nigel Packham likes this.
  4. Nigel Packham

    Nigel Packham Member

    He began his flying with 3 squadron and then transferred to 220 squadron. Do you have any additional information or were you just querying my details..?
     
  5. P-Squared

    P-Squared Well-Known Member

    Well, I was intrigued. The issue is that Hurricanes (and, indeed, Typhoons) did not have flight engineers, of course. So, there’s either some confusion, or he went all the way through pilot training, including conversion to type and joining a fighter squadron, then - at some stage - he was re-branched as a flight engineer: more specialist training, conversion unit, etc. That’s pretty fascinating, really. And the inevitable question should be: what happened on 3 Squadron? So, yes - very intriguing.
     
  6. Ewen Scott

    Ewen Scott Well-Known Member

    Well something seems a bit incomplete with your details.

    You have stated that your uncle served as a flight engineer. Until 1959, 3 squadron flew single seat fighters. No need for flight engineers, just a pilot. That is why the posters above are querying your information.

    220 squadron on the other hand flew Fortresses in Coastal Command from 1941 until April 1945 and Liberators from Dec 1944. Those multi engined aircraft did require a flight engineer. 220 was based out of Lagens in the Azores from Oct 1943 until returning to the UK in May 1945.

    It is entirely possible that he was groundcrew on 3 squadron and then remustered as aircrew. The need for flight engineers increased considerably as four engined aircraft were introduced to the RAF from 1941.
     
    P-Squared likes this.
  7. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Aircrew designed as Flight Engineer In this case would be serving with No 220 Squadron (as given) which was a Coastal Command squadron. During the period given the squadron was equipped with a variety of four engined aircraft. Detachments from its normal bases were frequent. The squadron finally disbanded on 25 May 1946 at Waterbeach,,having been in residence there from 22 September 1945.

    On 15 February,1943, the squadron was based at Aldergrove, equipped with the Fortress within No 15 Group, Coastal Command.(On D Day 6 June 1944,the squadron is shown to be part of No 247 Group Coastal Command based at Lagens,in the Azores).

    No 247 Group was formed in October 1943 at Lagens and comprised two squadrons, themselves and No 269 Squadron (from 8 March 1944).The task of No 220 Squadron was maritime patrols against the U Boat threat to the Atlantic supply route to Britain was paramount to achieve a successful D Day. No 220 Squadron was based there from 18 October 1943 but had detachments as found necessary, to Gibraltar and Thorney Island.

    Regarding Flight Engineer status. I would say it could be a case of groundcrew such as engines and airframe trades volunteering for remustering to FE. This might have been the path of Raymond Reeves which was normal for FE aircrew recruitment before Direct Entry FEs entered the service.
     
    P-Squared and alieneyes like this.
  8. JDCAVE

    JDCAVE Well-Known Member

    Nigel: the ORB’s for 220 Squadron are free for download from “The National Archives” and are easily searched on the RAF Commands forum here:

    RAF AIR 27 :: ::

    You need to review the “Records of Events” (Form 541) to obtain the list of names of the crew. The Summary of Events (Form 540) will provide an informative overview of the events for the day. Note you will need an account with TNA, and it is easy to sign up for that.

    It will take some digging. A review of his “Flying Logbook” will help you narrow your search.

    Jim
     
    Nigel Packham likes this.
  9. Nigel Packham

    Nigel Packham Member

    Jim, many thanks for your advice.. You’re right..!! It will take some “digging”, but a great help..!!
     
  10. JDCAVE

    JDCAVE Well-Known Member

    Ok Nigel. The December 1944 ORB records a F/Sgt. R.R. Reeves operational with F/O Speirs (CAN), on 18-December-1944. The aircraft, "G" Fortress II. Page 9 of this record:

    Squadron Number: 220 Records of Events: Y | The National Archives

    Also, on 18-November-1944. The aircraft, "G" Fortress II and Speirs is the Captain again. Page 4 of this record:

    Squadron Number: 220 Records of Events: Y | The National Archives

    This man might be your uncle. By the looks of the "Duty" in December, it was a "Transit Recce" and they landed in St. Eval.

    Note: The service number and "trade" or aircrew position of the airmen are not given. These are often specified in the more "useful" ORB records.

    Jim.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2022
    Nigel Packham likes this.
  11. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    One of the pages in the ORB lists, on 2/9/1944, that "F/O K. Speirs" was the skipper.

    That would be Kenneth Speirs, who passed in Vancouver 7 March 2006. Mention is made in his obituary of 52 ops.

    Regards,

    Dave

    The_Vancouver_Sun_Sat__Mar_11__2006_.jpg
     
  12. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

  13. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

    Last edited: Aug 4, 2022
    Nigel Packham likes this.
  14. Nigel Packham

    Nigel Packham Member

    Dave, Jim,
    Thank you for all your help, it's greatly appreciated..!!
     
  15. JDCAVE

    JDCAVE Well-Known Member

    Nigel: Have you been able to confirm if the individual I have identified in the above ORB records is your uncle?

    Jim
     
    Nigel Packham likes this.
  16. Nigel Packham

    Nigel Packham Member

    Jim, yes, indeed, it’s my uncle..!!
    Many thanks.. Now, I will try and track down the remainder of the men in the photograph..??
    Cheers..
     
  17. JDCAVE

    JDCAVE Well-Known Member

    Very Good! You should consider getting an account with the National Archives so you can download the ORB records for this squadron to cover all his operations. Also, there is a fairly comprehensive group on RAF Commands Forum on Coastal Command. I don't normally follow the Coastal Command "stuff" but there are some knowledgeable types on that forum. Also, I believe there is a recent book on Coastal Command, that does not come to mind. Evidently it is quite good. The reference is listed somewhere on the RAF Command Forum. Dad did one "Op" with 224 Squadron at St. Eval. For some reason, he is not on the Crew List on the Form 541, but the Op is in his logbook which is signed off.

    RAFCommands Forums

    Carry On!

    Jim
     
    Nigel Packham likes this.
  18. Nigel Packham

    Nigel Packham Member

    Jim, I’ve just opened an account with the NA.. So, happy hunting..!!
     
  19. Nigel Packham

    Nigel Packham Member

    Jim, I’ve just opened an account with NA, so, happy hunting..?? .
    Cheers..
     

Share This Page