41 RTR AoS marking

Discussion in 'North Africa & the Med' started by DavidW, Jun 7, 2014.

  1. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Can anyone help me with a query regarding the colour of the AoS marking used by 41 RTR on its Sherman MkIII at the time of Alamein?

    William Platz's book states green as does the Bison decal sheet.

    Dick Taylor's Warpaint books state red as does Peter Marshall (although he recognises green as a strong possibility).

    What we need I guess is a primary source.

    Thanks in advance,

    David.
     
  2. Wessex_Warrior

    Wessex_Warrior Junior Member

    Hello David,

    I would go with a white 28 on a Green plate. I can find no primary source for this but at the time of El Alamein the 41st RTR had been transferred from 8th Armoured Division to 10th Armoured Division along with the rest of 24th Armoured Brigade.
    10th Armoured Division already composed of one other Armoured Brigade which was the 8th Armoured Brigade.
    Since 8th is Senior to 24th then the 8th Armoured Brigade should wear a Red AOS and the 24th Armoured Brigade being the second armoured brigade should be Green.

    The 41st RTR is the Senior Regiment in 24th Armoured Brigade so should be numbered 28 at the time of El Alamein.

    If we can positively identify the AOS number on any of these Units at the time of El Alamein it will prove it :

    From 8th Armoured Brigade : 3 RTR, Staffordshire Yeomanry, Nottinghamshire Yeomanry.
    From 24th Armoured Brigade : 41 RTR, 45 RTR, 47RTR

    This information comes from Orders of Battle by Joslen and George Bradford Armour Camouflage & Markings North Afrika.

    Kind Regards,

    Will.
     
  3. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    This is from a book entitled 'Desert Tracks' by William E. Platz, Baron Publishing, 1976.

    It lists the AoS sign as 40 on Green Square. The system of using 27 to 30 was in use from June 1940 to February 1941 then went from 60 to 63 from Feb to Nov 1941. At Alamein they used 40, 86 and 67 on red for senior brigade and green for junior brigade. this according to Platz.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Will.

    I thought that my options were essentially 40 on green or 40 on red. But now you have thrown 28 on green into the mix as well!
    Although David (above) thinks that 28 was no longer an option in October 1942.

    David.

    You too have Platz as a reference and state green 40, do you dismiss Dick Taylor's Warpaint books that list red 40?


    I'm still not sure which way to go on this?!?

    Thank you both for your input.
     
  5. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    Although they were the junior armoured brigade of 10th Armoured Division, they did not join the division until October 11th, 1942 only 12 days before Alamein. Until that date they were the senior and only armoured brigade of 8th Armoured Division from July 11th, when the 23rd Armoured Brigade left to become an independent armoured brigade. This means that they might have had red background during the period from July to October 1942. Joslen even has them listed as under 8th Armoured Division through November 6th, 1942.

    If you look at equipment, these may also be a clue. The 41st Royal Tank Regiment handed over all tanks (Valentines) and B vehicles to 23rd Armoured Brigade on July 17th, 1942 in anticipation of being reequipped with Grants, Shermans and/or Crusaders. It was announced on August 8th, 1942 that they were to received two squadrons of Shermans and one of Crusaders. The first tanks received were three Crusaders and a Grant on August 15th. The B vehicles came on August 23rd, 1942. The regiment first went to the gun ranges on August 25th with 'A' Squadron to the Crusader range and 'B' to the Grant range. This did not imply that they were equipped yet. The regiment did not move to the fitting area until September 2nd, 1942 for fitting with diesel Shermans and 6-pounder Crusaders. The battalion then moved to Fayid on September 5th-7th to be able to fire the new Shermans when they arrived near the regimental location. On the 8th, 'B' and 'C' Squadrons to remain at Fayid until fully equipped with Shermans then move out. The first Shermans arrived that day. By the 12th they had six Shermans. It was not until October 4th, 1942 that the full complement of Shermans arrived. At this point they regiment was still the senior armoured brigade of 8th Armoured Division. This would probably imply that they would have a RED background in conflict with Platz, which is an older source. Between October 6th and 11th the regiment was conducting brigade exercises and would not have had time to change over any AoS signs. They moved to the assembly area on October 21st and were in action from October 23rd to 29th. Again this would imply red signs since there was probably no time for a change over. They may even have carried 8th Armoured Brigade formation signs. Since so many Shermans were lost by the brigade in a short period of time, this may never be confirmed.

    Sorry to muddle the waters further.
     
  6. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    The war diaries for 45th and 47th Royal Tank Regiment for the period model that of the 41st Royal Tank Regiment and do not add any more details.
     
  7. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    I also have the regimental history of a sister battalion of the 41st RTR, the 45th RTR. It is written by Ronald Addyman. It has two pictures of Shermans of the regiment at Alamein, but they are not detailed enough to show markings, even though one is colorized. You may try contacting the author. I am friends with him on Facebook so do a search and a friend request. You can also contact him through his website:

    http://www.ronaldaddyman.wanadoo.co.uk


    His email is on the website. Good luck. If I find anything else, I will let you know.
     
  8. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    David. Thank you very much.

    You said "They may even have carried 8th Armoured Brigade formation signs"
    did you mean 8th Armoured DIVISION formation signs? That would make more sense, and would agree with Dennis Oliver in "Codename Swallow".

    If find out anything, I'll let you know by posting here.

    Thanks again for your input.
    David W.
     
  9. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    Yes. Just a typo. I meant 8th Armoured Division signs. Again, I would try and contact Ron Addyman.
     
  10. Wessex_Warrior

    Wessex_Warrior Junior Member

    Hello David,

    I was wrong about the AOS number of 28 I should have said 40. Sorry for the confusion.
    I have done some more hunting. On Page 33 of British Sherman Tanks in the Concord at War books series by Dennis Oliver there is a colour drawing of "Cocky" a Sherman III of the 41st RTR at the time of El Alamein. There is no photo in the book but he states that the markings were from an account written by an officer of the Regiment and that the tanks were painted on the 12th October in a "mess of ochre and black paint". The drawing has the 8th Armoured Division GO insignia (yellow on green) but the AOS of 40 on Green. This may imply that on this date IF they were repainted the correct AOS for 10th Armoured Division was applied but the 8th Armoured Division GO was retained.
    So I see where this is utterly confusing. It would be useful to know when the tanks received this "mess" of a paint job because I believe it is first seen at El Alamein. Dennis is quite clear however that although attached to the 10th Armoured Division for the battle, 24th Armoured Brigade retained their old 8th Armoured Division badge, albeit with yellow lettering and the green AOS sign system of a junior brigade within an armoured division. BTW Cocky was the first casualty the Regiment sustained in the battle.
    There must be a picture of "Cocky" somewhere because it also appears on the Bison decal sheet.

    Kind regards,

    Will.
     
  11. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Will. No problems, and thanks for that.

    David. I e-mailed Ronald this morning. Thanks again.

    David W.
     
  12. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    David.

    Sadly Ron was unable to help, nor did he know of anyone who was likely to be .
     
  13. DavidW

    DavidW Well-Known Member

    Can anyone shed any further light on this debate, it's been a while, and my model awaits its decals!

    Thanks in advance.
     

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