5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards May 1940

Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by Yorke Scarlett, May 14, 2016.

  1. Quarterfinal

    Quarterfinal Well-Known Member

    Message deleted as unintended repetition
     
  2. battleofassche

    battleofassche Well-Known Member

    Thanks for those pictures much appreciated.
     
  3. Quarterfinal

    Quarterfinal Well-Known Member

    Suggit’s sons have had a further look for anything that could add to detail about the action on 18 May 1940. A local newspaper feature in 1958 bore a precis of the same account, lamenting that the carrier carried only 1000 rounds for the bren gun and that they had not been issued with any hand grenades.

    A copy of a letter (April 1970) sent to Monkey Blacker (see offering of 31 October 2020) had been found and begins: “Dear General Blacker, Your letter was indeed a pleasant surprise and indeed the only contact I have had with the ‘SKINS’ since 1944, when Major Gibson wrote, apart from hearing from the Regimental Association in 1946 .......... You mentioned the possibility of ‘calling in’........ Whether or not this happens, I shall take you at your word regarding the chat, one of these days.”

    Blacker at that time was GOC HQ Northern Command in York. His starting letter is still being looked for and similarly his response. It is known that they did meet again and possibly more than once:

    upload_2021-1-16_20-43-36.jpeg

    this being taken at civic event in Hedon. Seemingly, the General had just quietly remarked words to the effect of: interesting chap, that photographer ..... I asked him what he got up to during the War and he told me he was in the Luftwaffe, had helped come up with the cannon fit for the Me 262 before ending up an armourer with 7 Parachute Regiment ........

    Former PoW Ted Winkler (born Hamburg, naturalised British citizen for nearly 70 years and respected Hedon resident) died in November 2020, a fortnight shy of his 100th birthday.

    But we can only regret that there is not a record of the said ‘chat’.
     
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  4. Quarterfinal

    Quarterfinal Well-Known Member

    Another recently found earlier manuscript draft of HV Suggit’s reminiscences adds some additional detail not carried over in his subsequent memoire, ‘Reluctant Guest of the Reich.’

    His was No 5 Troop, B Squadron, 5 RIDG. The Troop was 11 strong, so perhaps one of its carriers did not have a radio or operator. The radio operator in his carrier was “Bowers,” quite likely the nickname of Trooper Wilfred Bowley, who survived Dunkirk, but fell in September 1944 (see #19).

    The account of the action is still broadly as gisted earlier at #10 and as he later publicised, albeit framed rather more grittily and with no additional details of its location. Snippets herewith:

    Whilst being attended to and searched by the Germans at the scene, some of the latter seemingly voiced degrees of disquiet, initially mistaking the Boys ammunition in one of his pouches for standard rifle ordnance. His greatcoat pockets contained loose .303 rounds, possibly for contingencies, which the Germans removed. His issued personal weapon may have been a .38 revolver for when the Boys was dismounted - (he had used it the evening before to despatch a wounded farm animal.

    There was some description of the Regiment’s preceding week in Belgium, suggesting his Squadron moved whenever possible at night on “black-out lights, each vehicle following the blue rear light of the one in front” with a rationale that this was undertaken for an admixture of OPSEC reasons, reduced Belgian refugee presence (many roads being “choked) and a lack of air superiority. Most German aircraft seen were attributed as ‘spotters’ and they had drawn enemy artillery fire, including: “Our Squadron was hurriedly assembled (the day prior to the start of the withdrawal) and before we had time to move off, we started to receive ranging shots as our CO (sic) was addressing us preparatory to (leaving). Fortunately, we had no casualties and were soon on the move again. Rumours were rife and we were warned to look out for red blankets hung on washing lines, which was supposedly a fifth column signal to show Jerry where to find petrol.”

    Morale was firm, but series of unexplained moves puzzled them: “..from position to position ...convinced us that we were trying to create the impression that we were in greater numbers than was the case ... (and whenever halting before nightfall) ... setting up the bren guns in anti-aircraft positions.”

    Later on: “That night (17/18 May) saw us taking up positions covering a thick wood several hundred yards away (from) where Jerry was thought to be. In setting our bren in a dismounted position, I resorted to pacing out 100 yards and 200 yards with a flash lamp covered with a handkerchief and held waist high to enable the gunner to check the tripod for level firing,” but there was no contact.”

    His flank liaison with the 15/19 RH sergeant on the morning of the 18 May is mentioned, but with no additional insight.

    HV Suggit (left) with Sam Sissons (another survivor from 5 Troop and the withdrawal) after laying a wreath at a Dunkirk 50th Anniversary commemoration:

    upload_2021-2-13_15-51-50.jpeg
     
  5. dleh

    dleh New Member

    Hello,

    I came across this thread as it mentions my grandfather, Ellis Holt. Great to see the photo and signature posted earlier!

    I’ve picked up a copy of Suggit’s book and was wondering if anyone would know whether his TSM mentioned in the first couple of chapters would have been my grandfather? From the entry on page 23 of the war diary above I suspect not, and that his was in fact TSM Baker.

    Sadly he passed away before I was born and I have very little information about him.

    Regards,

    David
     
  6. battleofassche

    battleofassche Well-Known Member

    Yes you are correct it was TSM Baker. Attached is your grandfathers MiD. Did your family have any pictures of him in uniform?

    Cheers Steve

    WO 373-89-587 e holt-2a.jpg
     
  7. dleh

    dleh New Member

    Thanks Steve, I think I have a photo somewhere, I’ll have to see if I can find it.
     
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  8. Quarterfinal

    Quarterfinal Well-Known Member

    Hello David,

    Sorry to read that you never met your Grandfather, but glad that this thread is offering some insight, not least Steve’s citation above.

    Although not mentioned in his book, it seems Suggit had some correspondence in 1946 with Dennis Swindells, another ‘Skin’ who had survived the war (ending up with a tank regiment in Greece) and who had hitherto been his regular driver, but had been on leave as the Regiment moved into Belgium. As Swindells put it: ” .... I was not (with you) when you moved against the Bosche, very fortunately for me ...” clearly mindful of the others’ fates.

    Swindells rejoined the Regiment after it had fallen back “to the chateau at Mouvaux, which you will remember as being one of our billets during the lull” and continued briefly about “...Dunkerque, being evacuated ..... on 2nd June. At that time we feared the worst for you and it was much later in England that we heard you were alright.”

    Whichever, Swindells also mentions Tosh Baker as the 5 Tp WO3, as well as a Sgt Knaggs, but without further detail. Monkey Blacker sent Suggit Tosh Baker’s address in Romsey in 1970, but I don’t know whether they ever met up.

    Both Swindells and Knaggs appear amongst the autographs.

    It would seem that Swindells’ letter caused Suggit to frame some notes on the action of 18th May 1940, which fifty years later metamorphosed into the first manuscript draft of his book.

    Some snippets worth mentioning here:

    The 1946 account infers that the liaison with the 15/19 RH may have been at the onset of the withdrawal, hence why they were: “ ... on our immediate right ...”

    5 Tp were evidently the last to cross the Reserve Demolition; no gaiety being displayed by the RE Major at this time: “... the REs cursing us for being their hold up before blowing the bridge.” (I wonder if the sappers managed to exfiltrate back, in light of subsequent events?)

    After leaving the bridge, they had “not gone far” before encountering the 30 some Germans on bicycles and Brown Jack’s very, very close range ‘field day’.

    Passing that scene again a few minutes later, they continued on “only a few miles (before crossing the) rise in the road (and nigh on immediately bumping the rear of the) convoy” in front of them, where ... “turning round was out of the question.”

    Further to the Gibson letter at #19 , it would seem that former OC B Sqn Colonel Scott also wrote to Suggit in 1943, forwarding a regimental beret and capbadge, following a request through Suggit’s mother. At the time, there were only 2 other ‘Skins’ in Stalag 383, details not known.

    Looking forwards to your photo(s).
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  9. dleh

    dleh New Member

    I haven’t managed to find a photo, but I had a chat with my Dad and he passed on some of his memories of discussions of this event with my Grandfather.

    To add to what’s described in #10 they were following behind after a carrier was hit, so we would have to assume that was Suggit’s. They charged and destroyed the anti-tank gun, and this is basically what’s described in his MiD. During this engagement his carrier was also hit but fortunately the shell passed clean through without exploding, including through the radio he was sat on!

    He later survived Dunkirk, getting picked up by a destroyer having swam out to sea quite a distance, and spent the remainder of the war training tank crew.
     
  10. Quarterfinal

    Quarterfinal Well-Known Member

    Hi,

    Thank’s for that. I spoke with one of Suggit’s sons during the week and odd pieces of memorabilia are still being being found. This included a photo of him and other walking wounded in hospital at Brugmann a couple of months later.

    Tosh Baker did drop Suggit a line after the war, letting him know where Evan Griffiths and Mutt Arnold were buried. Suggit also visited Miero War Cemetery (Bowley, Harry Sissons and an East Yorks soldier he knew from before the war) near Eindhoven, when being driven to Europort to catch a ferry back to Hull in 1985.

    Harry Sissons - another Skin- was not a relation of Sam Sissons (photo at #24), but was often presumed to be and Sam knew him, although Suggit did not.

    Sam, driving the TSM’s carrier and a Cpl at the time, had seen most of the demise of the lead vehicle, but when last discussed with him nearly 30 years ago, did not really add much technical detail. The Troop had been moving as fast as they could and their’s and the third carrier had been able to u-turn as the lead vehicle drew the weight of the enemy fire and then escape into dead ground. They must have been close enough though, to pick up Bowley. The fog of war indeed. He never mentioned a counter attack happening at that time, but was doubtless focused on other things. They seemingly caught up with the OC, Major Scott and his grouping - your grandfather included? - about 5 minutes afterwards. Bowley reported the other three in Brown Jack as fatalities. Sam Sissons did not know Suggit had survived until sometime in 1942.
     
  11. dleh

    dleh New Member

    He also recalled visiting his father in Colchester Military Hospital in 1965 and remembers him having a copy of a red bound book on the regiment’s history, probably borrowed from the hospital library, and that there was some mention of these events in there.

    I’m sure I noticed a book for sale that could have been this one on the museum’s online shop https://www.inniskillingsmuseum.com the other day, but now I’ve gone back to check it’s offline undergoing maintenance.
     
  12. battleofassche

    battleofassche Well-Known Member

    While doing some other research I noticed this casualty list no. 235 mentioning L/Sgt. Suggit.

    GBM_WO417_014_0328.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2022
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  13. Quarterfinal

    Quarterfinal Well-Known Member

    Belated thanks; copy duly passed. This remained the situation for some while, ergo:
    upload_2022-10-5_16-14-53.jpeg

    I note the family name is still misspelt. How is your book progressing?
     
  14. battleofassche

    battleofassche Well-Known Member

    The book is finished..... but is huge and has become a multi volume weighty tome. Initial estimates of printing costs are pretty expensive.

    I have found more pictures and information and am now working on edition 2. :)
     
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  15. battleofassche

    battleofassche Well-Known Member

    Recently noticed another picture of Suggit's scout...

    Foto englische Beute Panzer Bren Carrier Tank in Flandern Belgien 1940.jpg
     
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  16. Quarterfinal

    Quarterfinal Well-Known Member

    Many thanks. Notified to family member. That is quite a grouping and a larger calibre than I, for one, might have thought.

    Is that a railway wagon full of ballast in the background?
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2023
  17. Quarterfinal

    Quarterfinal Well-Known Member

    Revisiting the initial enquiry:
    At page 25 earlier, the Regimental Diary tells us: "A Squadron had lost a tank at Assche and B Squadron a carrier; a Despatch Rider had failed to return. These were our only losses" (for the period 17 and 18 May 1940).

    So who, where and when?

    We know that the tank was Lt Maude's, but the Diary (page 21) has already told us that Maude and his Driver, Tpr Harper survived. This seemingly presented one crewman unaccounted for.

    We know that the Carrier was LSgt Suggit's, that he was wounded and taken prisoner, that driver Cpl Griffiths and Bren gunner 'Mutt' Arnold died and that radio operator Tpr Bowley escaped, survived Dunkirk, but not the War.

    And the unfortunate Dispatch Rider, presumed killed, somewhere.

    Matching fatalities against Jim Boardman's 'Tracks in Europe':
    upload_2023-3-20_0-17-43.jpeg

    Tprs Brewin, Angell and RC Arnold are listed for the period, plus possibly Tpr Tingle and perhaps less possibly, Tprs Jackson, Gillard, Geach and Coyle.

    There are grounds for discounting Angell. In Boardman's book, it would appear that he was in Lt Ussher's carrier crew on 15/16 May (page 38) and quite likely still with him at Morbecque and Steenbecque on 24 May, in the engagement when that carrier was destroyed and Ussher seriously injured, then taken prisoner. Ussher believed his driver "got out" before the "ammunition on the carrier started to explode in all directions" but never mentioned his other two crewmen.

    They may have been Angell and Tpr Coyle, Coyle dying at the scene and being subsequently interred in Morbecque Cemetery, but Angell being wounded, evacuated by the Germans, only to succumb to his injuries and be subsequently buried at St Agatha-Berchem:
    Search Results | CWGC

    with Tpr Brewin, who conjecture may suggest was the missing Dispatch Rider, because he died on 17 May and before Maude's tank was destroyed.

    I had initially (wrongly) believed that LCpl Arnold ERY (later interred in Cement House Cemetery with Cpl Griffiths and Tpr Mutt Arnold) had been another secondee to the Skins, but now think he was killed in action with his own Regiment near Ath and then subsequently initially buried at Meslin-l'Évêque.

    And it still doesn't account for the still somewhat curious concentration/reburial of Arnold, Griffiths and Arnold:
    and who exactly was this man, who gave his all too, at rest in Le Grand Hasard:
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 28, 2023
  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    mORNING ....Did you get this from CWGC? I'm working on IDing and Unknown Officers grave near to Dunkirk. Barn door we've identified him but despite CWGC saying we are probably correct they are wanting more and aren't very forthcoming with any support/help (Standard). This sort of info might help.
     
  19. Quarterfinal

    Quarterfinal Well-Known Member

    Hello,
    My sources had been essentially jigsaw pieces:
    earlier in the thread, plus CWGC entries, plus Suggit's and Boardman's book's. What part(s) are you looking for additional / especial granularity on?

    I have edited my last paragraph above to change 'proximity' to 'side by side', a better descriptor, I think. But as to why this Concentration seemingly affected only Meslin L'Eveque and Schepdaal ..... I did just wonder if there had been a special influence that a Colonel in Chief (even if not as well placed as he may once have been) could bear? Perhaps I think too deeply.

    Best wishes for your endeavours.
     
  20. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Hi, Just wondering where the burial return came from.
     

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