6285338 Private John Bernard Jordan, 5 Royal East Kent Regiment, The Buffs

Discussion in '1940' started by Jurdon, Jan 27, 2011.

  1. Jurdon

    Jurdon Junior Member

    Hello Zeppman,

    My great uncle was in the Buffs, captured by the Germans in May 1940 (alas, do not know any details about this) and marched off to end his war at Marienburg and Stalag 20B. He, on his POW forms, said that he was 'freed' by the the Russians on teh 23 Jan 1945, but I assume he means this was then he was marched away west by the German guards...

    You posted a photo of the Buffs 'C' company at Canterbury 1939. I was wondering do you have the names of the soldiers on it? My great uncle was John (Jack) Bernard Jordan and was living in Margate at the time of his enlistment. One of them looks like him.

    Regards,
    Tim
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Hello Zeppman,

    My great uncle was in the Buffs, captured by the Germans in May 1940 (alas, do not know any details about this) and marched off to end his war at Marienburg and Stalag 20B. He, on his POW forms, said that he was 'freed' by the the Russians on teh 23 Jan 1945, but I assume he means this was then he was marched away west by the German guards...

    You posted a photo of the Buffs 'C' company at Canterbury 1939. I was wondering do you have the names of the soldiers on it? My great uncle was John (Jack) Bernard Jordan and was living in Margate at the time of his enlistment. One of them looks like him.

    Regards,
    Tim

    Hello Tim,

    Do you know what Battalion he was in?
     
  3. Jurdon

    Jurdon Junior Member

    Hello Tim,

    Do you know what Battalion he was in?

    Hello Drew,

    He was in the 5th battalion of the Buffs
    He does state that he was captured at Fecamp and that he worked at a Tobacco factory in Sedlinen from 1940-42

    Cheers
    Tim
     
  4. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Hi Tim,

    This is a 2nd Battalion Buffs thread about a battle in Belgium. Your great uncle was in a totally different battalion fighting in a different place-France.

    I'll start a new thread for you mate.

    Do you have any pictures you can add to the thread?

    Regards
    Andy
     
  5. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    For starters I can tell you as of the 10th May, The 5 Buffs were part of 36 Brigade, 12 Division and were later detached to the BEF GHQ/Petreforce. They were performing security and labour duties in the area of Rouen at the start of hostilities.
     
  6. ramacal

    ramacal 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA Patron

    Hi Tim,

    This copy of the Buff's nominal roll confirms that J Jordan was in "C" Company prior to embarkation to France. If you need any copies of the war diary for the Buffs in France, please let me know.

    Regards - Rob

    [​IMG]

    And a list of the officers who commanded the various companies:-

    [​IMG]
     
  7. ramacal

    ramacal 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA Patron

    Tim.

    Here is a useful website about the POW camps.

    Click the link below:-

    Prisoner of War

    Click Enter.
    Click Camps.
    Click Stalag
    Scroll down and Click XXB (Marienberg)
    Either click pictures (You might find one of J Jordan amongst the many).
    Or read the stories of men who were in the same place.

    Regards - Rob
     
  8. Jurdon

    Jurdon Junior Member

    Hello Andy,

    Thanks for the new thread and the clarification as to where the 5th battalion the Buffs were rather that the 2nd!

    [As it happens my grandfather, the brother of the J.Jordan of the 5th mentioned here, was in the 2nd Buffs BEF (he had been a regular soldier before the war) but escaped after going all the way to Cherbourg.]

    As for Jack Jordan it is interesting that the 5th seem to be labouring prior to being put into battle, as not having had enough training in England. I discovered the following:

    '5th Buffs were acting as Labourers in Alizay, south of Rouen, from the time they arrived in France in April 1940 until they were ordered to take the train to Doullens, which they did on 18 May 1940. Doullens was 20 miles south west of Arras. On the 20th May , looking at the 5th Buffs War diary (see N/A PRO WO 217/20 & N/A PRO WO 217/28) the line in front of road from Doullens to Arras was as follows. 6th NW Kents Doullens to S.W. of Pommera (Pommera was 4 miles N.E. of Doullens), 5th Buffs from Pommera to ;’Arbret (6 miles from Pommera and just to east of Saulty. There was no unit on the Buffs left.'

    SOURCE: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/UK-NWE-Flanders/UK-NWE-Flanders-4.html

    Does anybody know which German regiments came at them once they were engaged. I am a little confused as to this.

    Also I am surprised that Jack was picked up by the Germans all the way over in Fecamp, on the coast. Were their allied pick-ups from the FECAMP costal area that he could have got wind of, and was aiming for...?

    Many thanks,
    Tim

    p.s. many thanks also to Rob for the 'C' company and POW info
     
  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I'm not sure what those File Numbers are but 5 Buff for BEF France is WO 617/718

    Here's some info on a 5 Buffs chap killed fighting not too far from Doullens:

    Pte John Lungley

    Have a look a post No.4 :)

    They were fighting the 6th Panzer Division.

    I can't get to my evacuation books at the moment but I believe troops were evacuated from Fecamp as part of Operation Cycle. Do you know what date he was captured.
     
  10. Jurdon

    Jurdon Junior Member

    Andy - many thanks for the heads up for other thread about the 5th Buffs but here's the curious thing - having managed to find the copies of his service record in the loft just now (a major undertaking in itself) it has the note within it saying 'Missing' dated the 17th May 1940 which is three days before the 5th Buffs engagement with the 6th Panzers!

    Indeed according to the Buffs war diary as itemised in your link, on the Night 17th-18th May the Battalion was in Quevenvilliers which is just south east of Amiens and 30 mies away from Doullens!

    The 'Missing' statement is actually crossed out, but the next reference is for the 6th August sayng he is a POW in Stalag XXA, and in the 'military history sheet' his POW time is stated to have started on the 17th May.

    Did he do a runner prior to the Buffs being moved to Doullens, but once it was discovered he was in the POW camps this was just glossed over or missed....? The reference to his capture at Fecamp comes from POW form filled out after the war.
     
  11. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    The battalion was not at Quevenvilliers until the night of 17th/18th May. During the day of the 17th they were at Alizay Camp and were ordered to Le Havre by train.

    At 1100 hrs on 17th May the battalion marched to Pont de L'Arche Station near Rouen to entrain for Le Havre.

    At 1300 hrs they were ordered to return to Alizay by 36 Brigade and orders for Le Havre were cancelled.

    The battalion never left for Quevenvilliers until 2130 hrs.

    Speculation: Now Le Havre is only 25 miles from Fecamp so he may have been part of a battalion advance party that left for Le Havre before the main body and never got the message not to go.

    I would suggest the next step for you is to identify when the Germans reached the coast around Le Havre/Fecamp. I can tell you the Germans didn't reach the English Channel until 20th May and that was some distance away to the north east at Noyelles-sur-Mer.
     
  12. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I've just found the 5 Buffs CO, Lt. Col. E H Allen's Private Diary on my hard drive.

    Here's the entry for the 17th May:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  13. JackW

    JackW Member

    Andy - many thanks for the heads up for other thread about the 5th Buffs but here's the curious thing - having managed to find the copies of his service record in the loft just now (a major undertaking in itself) it has the note within it saying 'Missing' dated the 17th May 1940 which is three days before the 5th Buffs engagement with the 6th Panzers!

    Indeed according to the Buffs war diary as itemised in your link, on the Night 17th-18th May the Battalion was in Quevenvilliers which is just south east of Amiens and 30 mies away from Doullens!

    The 'Missing' statement is actually crossed out, but the next reference is for the 6th August sayng he is a POW in Stalag XXA, and in the 'military history sheet' his POW time is stated to have started on the 17th May.

    Did he do a runner prior to the Buffs being moved to Doullens, but once it was discovered he was in the POW camps this was just glossed over or missed....? The reference to his capture at Fecamp comes from POW form filled out after the war.


    Tim, my father was in the same Battalion (5th REKR) at the same time and it would appear that he was sent as an advance party to somewhere as he was captured at Boulogne on the 26th May, although he was posted missing on the 17th. Obviously, during the confusion at the time sections were moved but not recalled, so more or less, left to do their own thing as best they could.
    I do know that he was ferrying the wounded by ambulance when he was captured at Boulogne.
    Attached are part of his serice records.

    Jack.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Jack,

    I think a Company was sent to Boulogne to help defend it along with the IG and WG. I'll check later-I'm sure I only read that the other week.

    Edit:

    My mistake it was 6 DLI from 12 Div.
     
  15. Jurdon

    Jurdon Junior Member

    Andy,

    Thanks for the extracts from Lt. Col. E H Allen's Private Diary. It needs close reading.
    I never thought I'd get such detail in the confusion of the BEF retreat. There is certainly a lot to digest.
     
  16. Jurdon

    Jurdon Junior Member

    Hello Jack,
    Many thanks for the details you have added. It is interesting to note that your father was reported missing on the same day.

    I will try to post up some images of Jack Jordan's service record when I get to grips with posting the right size images.

    Indientally I see you have Ramsgate connections. Jack Jordan and his 5 brothers (including my grandfather) were born in Ramsgate, but after their mother was sent to Holloway for 6 months for allegedly harbouring a deserter in Great War when she came out (and they returned from an Orphanage as their father was in mesopotamia) they moved to Margate.

    After Jack came back from the Stalags he wasn't quite same I think and he drifted away from the family and probably into homelessnes. However eventually he was found a place at a home for down at heel ex-servicemen circa 1970 called Richleigh back in Ramsgate and lived their until he died at 90 in 1997. This I only found out after his death which was very sad. A friend of his from the home sent me some photo's of his 90th birthday. Thus I only have pictures of him aged 7 and 90 and nothing in between. It would be nice to find a photo of him during his army days.

    Cheers
    Tim
     
  17. Jurdon

    Jurdon Junior Member

    Here are a couple of extracts from Jack Jordan's his service papers:

    J.Jordan 6285338 (1).jpg

    J.Jordan 6285338 (2).JPG
     
  18. JackW

    JackW Member

    Tim, it appears that the records are filled out on different forms, even though Ken and Jack were in the same battalion!
    Also, Ken is not mentioned in any of the nominal rolls at all, so it provides a mystery to me, which after all these years will probably never be resolved.

    Jack.
     
  19. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Tim, it appears that the records are filled out on different forms, even though Ken and Jack were in the same battalion!
    Also, Ken is not mentioned in any of the nominal rolls at all, so it provides a mystery to me, which after all these years will probably never be resolved.

    Jack.

    Jack,

    Are you saying your man was cap badged The Buffs but not on the 5 Buffs nominal roll? I'm assuming you have checked 5 Buffs War Diary?

    I do know that he was ferrying the wounded by ambulance when he was captured at Boulogne.

    Is this from your father?

    Regards
    Andy
     
  20. JackW

    JackW Member

    Hi Andy,

    Kens service records state that he was 5th Buffs (as posted above) but when I checked Nominal Rolls at Kew last year, he was not listed.
    I have read through the War Diaries looking for any mention of him, but to no avail (that was in the limited time available at Kew).
    Unfortunately Ken died in 1972, but his brother (REME) gave us a lot of information.
    Also, Lt Horace Cook of 5th Buffs, was a local man whom one of my brothers spoke to a few years ago, gave us the info that Ken was sighted in Boulogne ferrying the wounded. (Lt Cook died recently).
    Yet again, there is no mention of Lt Cook in the Nominal Rolls!!
    Strange??

    Regards
    Jack.
     

Share This Page