78th British Infantry Division - "The Battleaxe Div"

Discussion in 'Higher Formations' started by Ron Goldstein, Nov 4, 2010.

  1. RAMC researcher

    RAMC researcher Junior Member

    Tragically, most books focus on the teeth arms - infantry and armour and support arms - artillery, signals and intelligence, rather than the service support troops - logistics and medical. Given that the majority of troops were in the service support, this is really frustrating.

    However, all is not lost. Get Drew to copy the 11 Fd Amb War Diaries on one of his trips to the National Archives and you will find a veritable treasure trove of information.

    Regards

    FdeP

    Thanks for your reply. I have already had some discussion with Drew elsewhere on this forum and I think it would be best if I went to the NA myself. That way I could see first-hand how big the relevant files are and what to copy etc.

    Jeff
     
  2. RAMC researcher

    RAMC researcher Junior Member

    The United Kingdom Official History series dealt with medical services pretty exhaustively. You may want to take a look at

    The Army Medical Services, Campaigns, Volume 2: Hong Kong, Malaya, Iceland and the Faroes, Libya, 1942-43, North-West Africa, Crew, Francis A. E. London: HMSO, 1957; and

    The Army Medical Services, Campaigns, Volume 3: Sicily, Italy, Greece (1944-45), Crew, Francis A. E. London: HMSO, 1959

    Your local library system may be able to obtain these by ILL.

    Best, Alan


    Alan - thank you for your response. I have made a note of the two book titles and will indeed pop down the library. They are pretty good at using the ILL service as I've ordered books that way before.

    Cheers,
    Jeff
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    The United Kingdom Official History series dealt with medical services pretty exhaustively. You may want to take a look at

    The Army Medical Services, Campaigns, Volume 2: Hong Kong, Malaya, Iceland and the Faroes, Libya, 1942-43, North-West Africa, Crew, Francis A. E. London: HMSO, 1957; and

    The Army Medical Services, Campaigns, Volume 3: Sicily, Italy, Greece (1944-45), Crew, Francis A. E. London: HMSO, 1959

    Your local library system may be able to obtain these by ILL.

    Best, Alan

    Whats Vol.1 like and does it cover the obvious? :D
     
    Ken P likes this.
  4. Alan Allport

    Alan Allport Senior Member

  5. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi,

    Further to my late 2011 posts on this thread regarding my late uncle John Devlin.

    I had a couple of days in TNA this week and found mention of him in the War Diaries on several weekly Form's "WF 3009" when he was shown as a patient in 76 & 33 General hospitals in Italy in April and November 1944 respectively. I now feel more confident of applying for his service record with verified army service, Battery and Field Regiment numbers.

    I noted that the 138 Field Regiment August 1944 War Diary mentioned that on 30th August 1944 arrangements were being made for a FGCM of "2 drivers 360 Battery on a charge of Manslaughter" - presumably connected to the 78 Division "riots"? No outcome is recorded. 78 Division left Egypt for Italy shortly afterwards

    Steve Y
     
  6. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Steve
    According to the book Battleaxe Division, the riots you are mentioning seem to have taken place on the 12th August.
    Quote from the book :"The military police had a busy night rounding up those offenders that they could catch and by morning more than 100 men from the division had spent a night in jail. Many others escaped incarceration through the sympathies of some of the Redcaps, as Maj White recalls:
    It is said that the Divisional Provost Marshal was secretely proud of his own military policemen who "released every member of the Division that the Cairo Military Police caught". Apparently when they saw a 78th Division man in the clutches of local police they would go up to the latter, point to the divisional patches on their arms and say "He's one of ours; we'll take charge of him". This they did until they rounded the next corner where they would set him free and say "now beat it-quickly!".
    There was, quite naturally, a great row about the riot and the divisional commander was forced to convene courts of inquiry in all units. The official history of the Kensingtons described what the battalion found from its investigation into the matter: "It was established that every man in the Division who had entered the town had quietly spent the entire evening, by some strange coincidence, at the pictures"!!

    I am not sure but I don't think that anyone was actually charged.

    Quite an interesting little snippet anyway:)

    Lesley
     
  7. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Lesley

    You mention the riots in Cairo as being on the 12th of August ?

    My diary has it differently. :)

    Wednesday 9th. August 1944
    Nothing doing today except for rumours of what the Div. boys are doing to
    Cairo. On guard again, gorged myself with beer, pineapple & cheese rolls
     
  8. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Could be Ron. Who am I to argue :)

    Also from Battleaxe Divison book by Ken Ford:

    It is very difficult to get to the bottom of the actual riots-some say that they were completely spontaneous, while others are adamant that the tumult was carefully orchestrated. Whatever the spark that lit the touch paper, the outbreak of lawlessness was certainly impressive. Cars were overturned, shop windows smashed, bars trashed and pitched battles raged through the streets. (perhaps this was the 9th)
    On the evening of 12 August, "unidentified soldiers", each displaying a yellow Battleaxe patch on his shoulder, demonstrated their displeasure at the treatment they had received by turning Cairo upside down.

    There is no date mentioned in Algiers to Austria by Cyril Ray

    Hope my father wasn't in the fray;)

    Lesley
     
  9. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Lesley et al

    I rember one of the tricks we were warned against whilst driving in Cairo.

    The local kids were apparently known to jump on the running board of army trucks and to remove watches from driver's wrists whilst they were concentrating on steering their vehicles !

    Never had it done to me however so can't vouch for it :)

    Ron
     
  10. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    Hi,

    I noted that the 138 Field Regiment August 1944 War Diary mentioned that on 30th August 1944 arrangements were being made for a FGCM of "2 drivers 360 Battery on a charge of Manslaughter" - presumably connected to the 78 Division "riots"? No outcome is recorded. 78 Division left Egypt for Italy shortly afterwards

    Steve Y

    Tullybrone,

    May I ask if there is explicit reference to a connection between the manslaughter charges and the Cairo disturbances ?

    On dates, I've noted several references to the 12th Aug, but the 4 war diaries that I've quickly scanned comment that the respective CO review of the riots/disturbances with their battalions/brigade forces were dated 13, 14, 13 and 11th Aug (the last one referring to the Faughs CO, John Horsfall being called to a meeting about it)...obviously not a particularly important detail.

    Although my father was acutely aware of the rooking, he also referred to a more insidious element of the stay in Egypt:

    QUOTE.
    "One morning, a section awoke with no canvas above them. During the night, the tent had been removed by thieves who had stolen the poles and the rifles.

    I had to be careful, however, of the garrison military police (MP). On a battalion route march earlier through Alexandria, I saw two MPs who hid behind a vehicle to avoid giving the proper acknowledgement of the battalion. I called another sergeant and challenged the two MPs, one of whom was a sergeant. I could only dress them down as our sergeant had not followed me. Many of our chaps had been charged in Alexandria with failing to salute an officer. The MPs connived at these traps by having a young subaltern walk past soldiers deliberately. The officer should have saluted the heroes who had suffered so much.”
    END QUOTE.

    best
     
  11. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Hi Richard,

    I didn't notice any reference at all to "Cairo" Riots in 138 FR WD. War Diary mentions 25% of strength going on leave to Cairo, Alexandria and Ismailia in early August. Lots of mention of training ongoing for those not on leave.

    There is an entry in mid August of the Division being put on notice to go back to Italy - presumably based on the events in Cairo?

    Mention of FGCM is as short as in my original post. No mention of any circumstances of incident giving rise to charges being laid before FGCM.

    Steve Y
     
  12. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    ok, thanks just wondering.. I hadn't previously read about any deaths associated with the August disturbances, so thought that you might have turned something up.

    I would think that the order to go back to Italy had been put in train irrespective of the events of Cairo..the 8th (and 5th) Armies were getting pretty short handed.
     
  13. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Richard

    Typical understatement "the 8th ( and 5th ) Armies were getting pretty shorthanded " we were knee deep in trouble before the 78th - and 1st Armoured made it to Coriano Ridge only to find that 1stAD were way out of battle practice - and were broken up for spares in October...78th did well though..just late ! we only had the three corps there with two British Corps over on the 5th's end of things - that's why we were in trouble
    and paid for it....

    Cheers
     
  14. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Just checked the war diaries/appendices for 56 Recce for August 1944 and no mention of the "riots"

    Lesley
     
  15. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    Richard

    Typical understatement "the 8th ( and 5th ) Armies were getting pretty shorthanded " we were knee deep in trouble before the 78th - and 1st Armoured made it to Coriano Ridge only to find that 1stAD were way out of battle practice - and were broken up for spares in October...78th did well though..just late ! we only had the three corps there with two British Corps over on the 5th's end of things - that's why we were in trouble
    and paid for it....

    Cheers

    Tom,

    No doubt, you and all the other lads had it much, much rougher than you should have during that late summer/early autumn period in Northern Italy due to the scandalous denudation of the Armies' resources.

    I think my potential for "understatement" is often the most appropriate approach....the use of my father's own words can express the horrors.. and (sometimes) joy of his 3 1/2 years away from his family much better than I.

    Always learning...

    best
     
  16. Collette Eustace

    Collette Eustace Junior Member

    No sadley my grandad john eustace passed away in 1978,
     
  17. Collette Eustace

    Collette Eustace Junior Member

    hi
    me too i would love to find out more information, my grandad was sgt john eustace, who sadly passed away
     
  18. Collette Eustace

    Collette Eustace Junior Member

    hi england phil, id love to know where i can get more information on my grandad sgt john eustace, it would be must appreciated as ive been trying for years, thanks collette eustace
     
  19. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Hello Collette and welcome to the forum
    You mention your grandad John Eustace. Do you know which unit he was in?
    I have found a mention of a Sgt Eustace in the book Algiers to Austria by Cyril Ray on November 27th 1942.
    QUOTE "The East Surreys had not had time to dig in and withdrew through the guns; the twenty-five pounders of 322/132 Field Battery knocked out fourteen of the seventeen tanks, but the German crews that escaped from them fought on from the cactus clumps, and enemy aircraft repeatedly dive-bombed the town itself, barely a mile to the rear. At the end of the action seven out of 322 Battery's eight guns were out of action-the one remaining gun had been manned for the greater part of the day by Sgt Eustace alone. The knocked- out tanks were in a ring around the battery, one of them only three yards from the muzzle of the gun that had destroyed it. Sgt Eustace won a D.C.M. that day, Lt Owen Jones, a gun-position officer of the same battery, an M.C., and Gunner Deans, who had, from an unarmoured truck, kept up communications though under fire throughout, an M.M. UNQUOTE

    Don't know if this is your grandad, would you care to post any information you have or any photos which may help forum members.

    Lesley
     
  20. Collette Eustace

    Collette Eustace Junior Member

    Hi Lesley
    Thanks very much, yes that was my grandad, he was in the royal artillery an won a DCM for the above mentioned, its just I've been trying for yrs to find all his service history an see if I could get copies of all his medals and certificates, so I can give to my dad for Father's Day, I didn't know about this forum Tilly brother in law found it, as I've been back an too to the British army, this forum is very useful, my grandad is mentioned in a few "widnes books" but I was wondering how to find the write ups like the one that had been on here. Thanks do much for your help.
     

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