7th Oxs & Bucks Monte Camino November 1943

Condie -
There you go again - jumping on your assumptions - we did NOT go to the same Primary Training wing for the general service indoctrination - I went to Bury St Edmunds # 53 PTW - whereas I should think he went to Perth or somewhere to the 58th - they were scattered all over the place - there was a draft for the 6th BW on the boat I went out on to Algiers - two members were neighbours in Dundee - one was killed at Cassino !

Raith Rovers --- hmmm - I had three cousins in Football - John with Greenock Morton - Alex with Cowdenbeath - Rangers - Scotland and Blackburn and he finished up with East Fife - Andrew with Cowdenbeath - my brother played for Aston Villa for fifteen years ....so football was in our family !

Burntisland always had a big fair in the summer - I was back to Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath a couple of years ago - changes all over the place ...to be expected of course
Cheers

 

Oops! Sorry Tom,
It was me mis-interpereting what you had said about the training camp.

Re:- Burntisland, I used to spend the whole 6 weeks of my school holiday there at my Grans house, highest house in the castle area, over looking the shipyard to the back and the Aluminium works out the front. We used to just about live on the links whilst the fair was there and used to scavenge for dropped coppers after it packed up. Any money found got spent on Plummers Irn Bru. It doesn't seem to taste the same these days.
Great days, great days.
My Uncle Robert Millar used to be the manager of the shipyard, I remember seeing the big ships being built there and the sound of hot rivets being hammered in.
I digress.

I will now put another kind of list together about the possible course my Grt Unc took and see if you think it is more feasable.
I agree that he would have trained in Perth as that is where the 8 ITC was

many thanks for all your input.

 

Tom,
Do you remember what ship you were on and what date when you went to Algiers with that draft of 6 BW, just out of curiosity mate

 

Condie -
The ship was the Franconia and it must have been after August '43 as I don't have the date - Ron Goldstein thinks we went out to-gether in April but I was still on tank Traing in Barnard Castle at the time he went out...

Cheers

 

Hi again Tom,
Maybe this will help clear up the early timescale of when you arrived at Algiers.
Last August I was at the British Library checking out a book called 'A History of 6th Battalion Black Watch 1939-45' by BGJ Madden (Royal Highland Regiment)
From my notes:- The 6th arrived at Algiers March '43 and marched the 4 miles to Maison Carree where they stayed for 4 days. Then going on to the concentration area at Ghardimau, Tunisia.
They were then at Beja area on April 6th.
(I personally dont know where these areas are, I haven't checked them out yet)

Then an Earlier post of yours in this thread said "there was a draft for the 6th BW on the boat I went out on to Algiers - two members were neighbors in Dundee - one was killed at Cassino" (Just as a curio, how do you know about these two after you landed at Algiers, did you meet up again?)

Then I came across a post of yours on
BBC - WW2 People's War - Algiers; With 145 RAC
which related your story about first landing at Algiers , quote:-
Then it was time to board the Franconia at Liverpool for the cruise to Greenock to pick up the Convoy and set off for parts unknown.... possibly to somewhere peaceful which was an optimistic view of life !
We finally arrived at Algiers where we lay off admiring the city in the distance, until the wind changed and we had our first taste - or rather- smell of the Orient ! It was not good. On disembarking next morning we found it strange that the Infantry in the form of the 6th battalion Black Watch had transport laid on for their journey to their transit camp at Maison Carree some six miles from the City whereas we Tank men had to march the ten miles to our camp at Cap Matifou !

Going on the basis that you travelled with the 6th BW on SS Franconia and remembered that they went to Maison Carree. It would kind of add up from the Madden book that you were there in March/April of '43.
It all seems to fit, I hope you agree.
Hope that helps
Kind regards
Gordon

 

On checking convoy dates at Arnold Hague Convoy Database
The SS Franconia convoys were as follows around that time:-
KMF 10A Depart Clyde 25-2-43 Arrive Algiers 4th March 43
KMF 13 Depart Clyde 16th April 43 Arrive Algiers 23rd April 43
KMF 15 Depart Clyde 19th May 43 Arrive Algiers 28th May 43

Ok so dates do get confused with records but these times would conflict with Madden cos the only way the 6th BW would have been in Algiers in March would be if they went on Convoy KMF 10A, but that would be too early for you Tom I guess.
You would favour the KMF 13 in April ,
Gets confusing dont it!!
Be nice to get a more accurate time for you

 

Condie - NO No No - I went out much later than April as the 6th BW on board were a draft or reinforcements FOR the 6th BW in 4th Div.- one of them - Peter ? I bumped into much later in Rome and he told me that Jum Bowman had been killed at Cassino.

Maison Carree was the Infantry transit camp whereas Cap Matifou was the Tank transit camp and is up around the bay - you will find Beja on the North Coast of Tunisia just over the border of Algeria and North again of Medjez el Bab
Cheers

 

Condie -
your'e getting me confused now - Tebarca is on the coast - Beja is way inland - try your google map


Cheers

 

Tom, Yeah I checked that out, thanks.
Here's a chronology of the 6th Black Watch upto the time they arrived south of Cassino in '44. I guess the draft you met would have joined them at some point during this time scale and Jim Bowman would have been killed around the time following this excerpt.
:-------
the battalion reached the Dunkirk beaches on 1 June and in small groups were successfully evacuated to England. The whole battalion then reformed in the Isle of Wight as front line defence against the expected German invasion. It remained in England and Scotland until March 1943, when it was sent to take part in the final weeks of the campaign in Tunisia.
15 Mar 1943 - 28 Apr 1943: Tunisia
The battalion moved from the Isle of Wight to the mainland in December 1940 and thereafter was successively in the areas of Newbury, Stockbridge and Camberley in England, and of Hawick and Selkirk in Scotland. From the latter area, still in 12 Brigade of the 4th Division, it sailed from Liverpool on 15 March 1943, disembarking at Algiers eight days later and moving up to near the front at Beja on 6 April. At that time the Germans were holding up the allied forces, which had landed at Algiers in November 1942, on a line some 45-50 miles (64-80km) west of Tunis. On 10 April the battalion took over a position from the Royal Irish Fusiliers (78 Division) and that night moved further forward to occupy a line of hills called Djebel Rmel held by tanks of the North Irish Horse, who then withdrew. This was some 2 miles (3.5km) ahead of any other British unit and overlooked from higher enemy held ground barely a mile away. Although this resulted in some enemy shelling next day casualties were light. The following day, however, a rearrangement of the company positions was attempted during daylight and heavy casualties were suffered from shelling throughout the day. The following day the enemy guns which had caused all the damage were put out of action by some medium artillery and, apart from some patrolling casualties, the battalion spent a fairly quiet few days in this position (although being at one time strafed by a few Stukas without suffering any casualties) before being relieved on 19 April by American troops. On 20 April the battalion moved up to the area of Medjez-el-Bab ready to follow through a brigade attack on an important road junction on the road from there to Tunis called ‘Peter’s Corner’. This attack on the night of 23 April failed to dislodge the Germans and the battalion as a result was held up on a feature called ‘Banana Ridge’. Next day B Company was ordered to mount a daylight attack on a small hill at Sidi Mediene to the south of ‘Peter’s Corner’ but suffered such serious casualties that it was ordered back without reaching its objective. Two nights later the whole battalion renewed the attack on Sidi Mediene and succeeded in gaining possession by use of the bayonet after three hours and further heavy casualties. An enemy counter-attack was beaten off the following night. Forward of this position was another hill feature, Sidi Abdullah, which A Company succeeded in taking on 28 April and beating off a counter attack with bayonet charges. The Germans then bombed the position from the air and attacked what was left of A Company with infantry and tanks, forcing it to withdraw. The opponents were units of the Hermann Goering Division, amongst the cream of the German army, and prisoners later said that the fighting in the ‘Peter’s Corner’ area had been tougher than anything they had experienced in Russia.
May 1943 - December 1943: Tunisia
The battalion was withdrawn from Sidi Mediene during the night of 30 April/1 May, receiving much needed reinforcements from the Royal Berkshire regiment before going into action again north of ‘Peter’s Corner’ on 5 May to take part in the final phase of the war in Tunisia. Suffering only light casualties it eventually formed part of a motorised dash across the base of Cap Bon during the night of 9/10 May, reaching the small town of Korba on the east coast before dawn. By this time the Germans and Italians were retreating before the 8th Army pushing up from Sfax with no idea that the British were already at Korba. A road block was set up just south of the town on a bend in the road behind a small hill. This enabled the battalion to capture groups of the enemy and hide them behind the hill before the next lot arrived. Most were Italians who put up no resistance, and the few Germans who tried to fight were quickly overcome. Within a few hours there was a considerable ‘bag’. Just before nightfall the next day an Italian officer arrived from the north with a flag of truce and the battalion signals officer was sent off with six ‘jocks’ to take the formal surrender of some 1200 men of a communications regiment in the hills in the middle of Cap Bon (to which were later added several hundred Germans). Unfortunately it was found that the Italians had destroyed the signals equipment which it had been hoped to capture too. On the morning of 13 May it was learned that all enemy resistance in Tunisia was at an end and a few days of relaxation were possible by the sea before the battalion was sent south to act as guards on temporary prisoner of war cages between Sousse and Sfax for a couple of weeks. Then, after several months back at Bougie and Djidjelli in Algeria, it moved by sea to Egypt where, on Christmas Day, it erected a tented camp in a sandstorm near Suez and engaged in two months’ training in amphibious landings on the Bitter Lakes (with short leave trips in relays to Cairo).
06 Mar 1944 - May 1944: Italy
The training in Egypt in amphibious landings was not put into practice. Instead the battalion was landed by ship at Naples on 6 March 1944, by which time the Italians had joined the Allies. Four days later it was holding part of the front line in snow nearly 3000 ft (900m) up on Monte Ornito, some 15 miles (24km) south of Cassino.

 

Now I'm confused.
6th Black Watch were in Bougie and Djidjelli in Algeria around the time that GDM (my grt Uncle) arrived in Algeria, end of July '43.
His posting shows 6th Bn dated 8-8-43. Presumably this is 6th Black watch as he was a Black Watch soldier. (by my family members confirmation and from the Army Personnel Centre)

Why is it that his posting list shows that he was X(IV) List at 21-9-43
and Then 7th Ox & Bucks from 1-10-43.
Why would he not have just stayed with the 6th BW and then arrived south of Cassino in March '44.
How the hell are you supposed to understand these postings and service records if they dont tell ya properly.
Does anybody understand them??

 

Condie -
Now we have been all through this before - so keep cool -nothing wrong with the records - he was in the 6th BW in July - SOMEHOW he was placed on X(1V) reserve - after sickness is a good speculation - probably dysentery or Malaria -in AUGUST - before the landings at Salerno on the 9th of SEPTEMBER -

at that time of their sojourn in Bougie - they were made into a reinforcement unit for Xth corps after Salerno - by order of AFHG at Algiers - this is probably why he was transferred to the Ox and Bucks - on the 1st of October '43 as the casualties were still mounting as the X corps took over Naples - he then joined the Ox and Bucks towards the Garigliano - and was killed.
He probably had little choice in the decision to tranfer from 6th Batt BW...and the further reinforcement for the BW on the Franconia with me before they went to Cassino...

Clear now ?

Cheers

 

Bloody hell Tom, The mist just lifted. why didnt you say so before. Ha! Ha!
Now the whole thing has become clear.
Thanks mate, you've been an absolutely invaluable help.

I now have to read The Black Cats At War, The Story of the 56th (london) division T.A 1939-1945 By David Williams.
because it sounds like the right thing to do.

Talk to you later

 

Just a couple of things more Tom,
you say -- by order of AFHG at Algiers. What is AFHG ??

Also I notice on his (GDM's) papers that there was an ammendment noted at the foot of the posting list. Dated 6th Sept 43 N0. (4)M3584317 12/43
Do you think that would be anything to do anything, maybe hospitalisation or something eh!

 

Hi Tom/Condie

i've just got hold of these cloths from a collector/dealer Geoff Newman www.gnmilitaria.co.uk,really spot on guy very helpful.

I wondered if you could take a look and give me your opinion /

cheers

derrick

 

Condie ,,,,,

AFHQ = Army Force Head Quarters - Algiers - the boss there was Eisenhower- at that time ! -

This was then moved to Caserta in Italy with Alexander as boss - then it became Allied Armies Italy - then back to AFHQ - they had a hard time making up their minds at times ! It went the route from 18th Army group(1st and 8th Army) - 15th Army Group ( 7thUS & 8th Armies in Sicily) - AFHQ ( couldn't call it 13th Army group in Italy which was 5th US & 8Th Army) - AAI - AFHQ - and a few more changes !

The number at the bottom of the list is only Office gibberish and probbaly does relate to his transfer....meaningless !

Zola -
bit odd as he of course was in the Royal Engineers with their cap badge on the left and an unknown brass thing on the right - the leaping deer in the centre is the Divisionsal sign of the 2nd Polish Division - the white things at the bottom are incorrectly mounted but still signify his service in X corps ( the white bar should be on the bottom with the ball on top of the bar - just to confuse the dumb Germans that this was the TENTH Corps)

So your father served in the X corps with Mc Creery in the US 5th Army which landed at Salerno - then on to the Garigliano - then probably Anzio - then transferred to the Polish Corps in 8th Army over on the Adriatic side of Italy.

His service records should show when and where

Cheers

 

Tom,

The leaping Gazelle is X111 th corp ref your help below :-


I have already outlined that your father's outfit started off initaly with Xth Corps - then moved over to X111th Corps - then back to Xth corps - then probably back to V corps as that was the nature of the Engineers road building gangs - they went where the priorities took them -

i'm new to this so oops for the cock up on the cloth mock up (now corrected) the RE brass letters came with the medals when i applied for Dad's entitlement from Droitwich.

will be seeing Dad's brother Frank 85yrs young today, he was at SWORD beach as part of the Pioneer Corp. he was in the army till mid 60's. Kings Royal Rifles was one of his reg's.

Bit confused where did you got the polish company link from ? is there cloth similar to the Gazelle ?
cheers

Derrick

 

Thanks Tom.

Hi Derrick, the link below shows some insignia etc, The 10th insignia is in there somewhere but you might have to dig it out. There are other sites that i'm sure will give up the necessary, but you cant get a better explanation than what Tom has told you.
Combat Mission British Uniforms - Khaki Drill and Jungle Green

Condie

 

Hey Tom,
Hope you dont mind but I found this on another site whilst skipping around the ol internet. Nice to have a refreshing italian ice-cream after the previous couple of years work had been completed. It must have tasted like heaven. Good luck to you sir. (you on the left I take it)

 

Condie -
where did you find that photo - correct that's me on the left with wee Wully Fenn from Glagow - he was a gunner in 3rd Troop and had the only 95mm in the squadron - that was taken near the Colleseum - probably my 21st Birthday......

Zola - the Leaping Gazelle is correct as X111 Corps - I had it mixed up with the leaping deer of the Polish lot - their deer leaped the other way - and wasn't so shaggy - it is shown on the memorial service programme of the 8th Army...your avatar show the correct mounting for X corps..

Cheers




Cheers

 

Tom, Glad you liked the photo, got it from a WW2 forum, BBC one I think.

Getting back to 7th Ox & Bucks, here is a photo of the CWG at Cassino. This view shows the re-built Monastry up the top and in the background. The town of Cassino would be to the bottom right, if my memory serves correct. It was taken in 2005 when I last went. The Grave of GDMC is the second at the bottom, front row. which is actually the 5th from the end of the row. XiX A 5
All fellow Ox & Bucks that were killed at Mnt Camino between 10th & 13th are either buried here or they are on the memorial tablets. (which are behind my right shoulder from where I was standing taking the shot)