93rd Anti Tank Regiment Royal Artillery (A.S.H.) Q Battery. D Troop BNAF Tank

Hello,
I am trying to find out which tank (destroyer?) my grandfather-in law was a Gunner on. I am finding it hard to find The movements of specific troops. If anyone can help identify the equipment/tank that D troop had that would be amazing, and where it was at that time as I want to make a diorama / model of the tank for his son.

This is his military service number note
(Bet. 15 Mar 1940–19 May 1946 in UK, North Africa & Italy; 6212366 6 Bn.Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders) Apr 1943: Rank: Gunner. 93rd Anti Tank Regiment Royal Artillery (A.S.H.) Q Battery. D Troop BNAF*
*British North African Forces.

he told us it was a Sherman, but no more details than that - unsurprisingly he didn’t like talking about his experiences. I see there were a few variants that it could have been, but want to get it right.
Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.
Simon.

 

Welcome to the forum Simon!

This might not be the best sub-forum in which to post you request. You might want to ask the Mod to move it to the RA sub-forum (by clicking the Report button and requesting the move in the box which will then open) and to tag it for you.

Quick answers, until more competent members reply more precisely:

Other posts on 93 A Tk Regt RA:
93 anti tank regiment ra | WW2Talk

Equipment used:
93 (Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders) Anti-Tank Regiment RA (TA) - The Royal Artillery 1939-45

Michel

 

Terminology for self-propelled anti tank guns can be a bit loose. The 93rd were equipped with M-10 tank destroyers which were based on the Sherman. Initially they had 3" M-10s and started to get 17-pounder M-10s at the end of September 1944.

There ARE some IWM photos of the regiment's vehicles. There are some of a 17-pounder M-10 crossing the Savio river at Cesena, for instance. There are others from earlier in September too.

I'm away from my PC but I think those would be the most useful resources for model-making? I think I have a copy of both their history and their war diary as well.

 

Hello again Simon,

I am not sure that 93 A Tk Regt used M10 in North Africa. I believe they used them only in Italy. If you want to depict one, then you should get hold of a copy of the Regimental History (see Uncle killed in Tunisia - 93rd Anti-tank Regt RA (6th Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders)) which should tell you from when and where which Battery/Troop used which model (M10 3" or M10 17 pr), and then use the IWM photos as reference. Not knowing the particular tank your GFiL had should not be a problem, because they seemed to be pretty much covered with various stuff which obscured part of the markings:


THE BRITISH ARMY IN ITALY 1944. Image: IWM (NA 18091)


THE BRITISH ARMY IN ITALY 1944. Image: IWM (NA 19727)

Michel

 

They started to get M-10s in January 1944 as I recall. So no, they did not have them in North Africa.

 

Photos of regimental M-10s on the way to the Mareccia River. Note, there is some sort of insignia on the side - I forget what it is. (Note: mislabeled as Sherman tank)

EIGHTH ARMY : VARIOUS
EIGHTH ARMY : VARIOUS

 

Also, another view of the M-10 on the bridge of Churchill Arks. I think there are more. But this is a rear view, so, I hadn't thought about it, the two+ photos do give you an all-around view of where things were stowed.

Search | Imperial War Museums

 

Hello Chris and Michael,
Many thanks for your post - really interesting. Confirmation that they didn’t have M10’s in NA narrows the search, I assume that they had some form of towed anti-tank gun in NA. I think I was confused, as a lot of what I read said they were attached to American units in NA so I started to think he might have been on one of their Sherman’s. It also didn’t help that my father in-law didn’t know he’d been to Italy until we saw his war record.
I will have a good read through that chapter posted in the other thread. It might generate some questions as I’m certainly not an expert on military, I like making models of many different subjects but enjoy the research and making sure details are correct.
My father-in-law is also looking at home as he thinks he has a photo of his dad next to the tank he was on. It might take a while as they have alot of stuff, but if he does find it I will post it on here as probably not recorded anywhere else!
Cheers, Simon.

 

I’d seen these on Google - but was never quite sure if the captions were correct. The second would be a great model to depict, with ARK’s it probably a years job!

 

I thought I’d done a decent job of searching photos, but hadn’t seen these, so thankyou. Just shows how knowledge helps a search. I noticed on Michel’s link that the arm insignia in Italy was a Viking longship with a cross on the sail - is it possible that is what on the side of the tank? Quite hard to see in the photo. Simon.

 

Identifying the ‘tank’ on the savio is really useful, thanks. I see they had 17 Pdr pheasants as well, but I wouldn’t have easily recognised the difference. Am I correct in saying that the 17-pounder is identified over 3” by the muzzle?
Photos are the best resource - and I tend to pick one and follow it!
If you do get time to the war diary and history, please post as every bit of detail is great thanks!

 

I’ve just been told that one of the stories the GFiL told was ‘that it was so hot in Africa we fried eggs on the tanks armour’. I wonder if this was either on the Americans tanks, or if it was Italy which would have been really hot in the summer and the Africa bit was a mistake or assumed!

 

Yes, the 17 pounder will have a longer barrel with a muzzle break, while the 3" will not.

The Pheasant is yet another beast: the first 17 pounder towed guns put on the (more awkward) carriage of the 25 pounder gun instead of the one purpose built for the 17.

I'll send you a private message about the history etc. It's too much to post to the forum.

 

It may well be that they trained in North Africa with M-10s for a couple of months before shipping out to Italy, but that would have been the winter. I wonder if he was remembering the summer of 1944 in Italy.

 

Hi Chris,

I’ve read the regiment history now (many many thanks for the share) and they had supply of M10’s from early August ‘43 into North Africa, but it took until 20th September to fully rearm with s.p. So GFiL would have trained with them in NA, but in readiness for Italian action. I’ve written a summary below, this is as much for my notes, but also may be of interest to you and others.
The regiment moved to Italy on the 13th December, landing at Naples, The M10’s went by separate ship and then train, so it was early January 1944 before all were fully reunited.
On the 13th September, the regiment received 3 (4 in book, 3 in war diary) valentines with 17 pounders. These were deemed utterly useless and promptly got rid of to the Canadians (the books words not mine chris!)
The M10C’s appeared on the 26th September, started passing to the regiment on the 30th. The 93rd now had 3 SP batteries, each with three troops of four SP’s. One troop in each battery got an M10C. by this point the original D troop had been dispersed amongst the newly numbered batteries, so the GFiL would have definitely been on an M10, but only maybe moved to an M10C with the 17lb’er.

Next to go through the war diary - which mostly being for September’44 could prove most useful.
the safe option is to go with an M10, in either NA training, or river crossing in Italy.

if I make any further progress I’ll pop a post here.
Cheers.

 

Hi Si,

I'm very familiar with those comments! I also found more in some official reports which must have come from the regiment. They were very pro-M10.

I found researching & reading about September 1944 very interesting. You may be treading over ground I have already been - search for other threads here about the Marecchia et al, and you'll probably find threads where I was asking questions.