99th London Welsh HAA - tracing their route

I am new to this site but want to track what my father did and where he went during WW2. His name was Lawrence Furlong Hay, his army number was 3776770, he joined up on 18/4/1940 and he was de-mobbed on 20/5/1946. I have applied for and received a copy of his army record but it is somewhat confusing and doesn't give as much information I was hoping for.
For much of that time he was stationed in different parts of England - he was in and attached to many other HAA units until June 1944 and he then went over to France as part of the 99thLondon Welsh HAA Regiment. We believe he moved on from France to Belgium and we have found an old photo with 'Brecht' written on the back , which is a small town near Antwerp and we know he was de-mobbed from Hamburg- so he was also in Germany. We also have some old photos of pony & trap racing in Hamburg and an inter battalion/regiment football tournament showing my father as part of the winning team . There are also some other photos showing an encampment of tents at different times of the year ie in summer sunshine and in winter snow. There is another of men sitting on a downed aeroplane which presumably may have been one that they shot down.

I came across your site when I tried googling 99th London Welsh and found something on a forum dated 25/10/2015 by a mister Bob - there appeared to be an attachment on the page but I don't appear to have the privileges to open it but it mentioned a book about the 99th & that there was a copy of it in the IWM - Mr Bob had tried to get a copy of it but was struggling, so my first question is how do I approach the IWM to get a copy of it? I also learned about regimental diaries and saw a couple of copied pages from it - theres a message from Drew 5233 about obtaining copies of the diary and the way to do it by sending Drew a private message -is that service still available & how do you send a private message - as it sounds as if the regimental diaries will be a very good starting point. Especially for a novice.

 

Welcome to the forum.

First of all, is it possible you could post a copy of your fathers records as this could help enormously. Otherwise a detail transcription which gives dates and (I suspect) details of which Battery he served in.

Once we have that that itr gets a lot easier to timeline and track a servicemans journey through the war and you can then focus on any relevant diaries that may be a Kew with confidence you are not wasting your time up a blind alley.

According the 26th AA Brigade diary, one battery, 302 was based at Hayes in Kent in April 40 but unfortunately I don't have the main regimental diary or any of the batteries and so can't give any further detail. However even this single battery seems to 'dissapear' from the diary soon after so it is quite likely that the regiment and / or its batteries were moved elsewhere, something thatt was quite prevalent during the early part of the war as AA Command grappled with the optimum way of defending Britain from the Luftwaffe.

You will probably want to start with the main Regimental diary and I would suggest WO166/2389 for 1939 - 1941 and if you know which batteries he was in, it is likely that they will have individual diaries as well.

Drew is the best source for the regimental diaries held at the National Archives at Kew unless you can get there yourself. He will copy them for a fraction of the 'official' price and comes highly reccomended. Unfortunately, although on my list to copy, I don't have any for 99 HAA myself.

To send a PM, login and select the envelope symbol in the top bar and select Compose New, Drew5233

As for publications held at the IWM. I believe that if they are in their library that they can only be accessed in person there or you pay them to copy the publication with all the attendant risk of its relevance.

My limited knowledge covers only the early Blitz part of the war and there will be much more to investigate concerning their later time in NW Europe

Good luck

 

Hi Janice - I've sent you a private message

 

I've scanned the main parts of my dads records -hopefully they are readable as they are copies of copies. I'm hoping someone will be able to interpret them so I can track his service in this country before he went to France with the 99th London Welsh HAA Regiment, and then hopefully track where he went in Europe before being de-mobbed May 1946. Will the war diaries be the best for getting more details? I very much appreciate any help you can give me to point me in the right direction.

Perhaps I'm being really thick and missing something really obvious - but how do I add an attachment?

 

Hi

To add an attachment

Login and go to your thread. In the Reply to this topic box at the bottom, select More Reply Options where you will see an Attach Files heading with a box to 'choose files' immediately underneath. Once the attachment has finished uploading, select Add to Post and Add Reply at the bottom.

Attached is a sample page from a battery diary that gives some idea of the information that is often recorded. The Z.E codes here are all identifying specific AA battery location for which, in most cases, modern day OS map coordinates are available.

Graham

 

Unless there is a regimental history war diaries are the best way forward. Here's the 99 HAA War Diary entries when they left England for France:

 

Ok - I've moved on to a PC rather than a tablet & can see the paper clip and attach files all very clearly now - so how dumb do I look and your attachments look so much clearer via a PC screen - so I will stick to viewing via the PC going forward. I can see that the 99th war diary will certainly be a must for tracking his route through Europe from 1944 to his demob in 1946 (although that may be harder than I think as the page you have put up looks fairly straightforward and informative but possibly isn't always that way(?)) but its his service from 1940 to 1944 that I'm struggling to make sense of as I cant see clearly what regiment he was with. I'm now also realising that I don't know what the differences are between a battery, a division, a battalion & a regiment - so it may all be down to my ignorance on the structures .

I was sent 2 different parts to his record -the part I've copies has a heading of Service and Casualty Form - there is another record on A3 size paper titled Record of Service Paper and Statement of the services which seem to contain similar information but not as detailed.

Thanks for all your help and patience you have all been marvellous . - I wasn't going to order the 99th Regimental diaries until I knew whether I needed to get any others for his earlier service possibly in other regiments - but I'm wondering if it may be worthwhile ordering the 99th 's diaries for 1944 & 1945 now as I know he was with that regiment over that period & get the ball rolling - would that be the best way for now?

 

Hi Janice-I sent you a PM yesterday but you hadn't read it when I last checked today. I'm happy to go through the records for you if you want to email me a copy.

Regards
Andy

 

Welcome Janice

The topic has turned up before

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/59348-where-were-the-99th-haa-in-nwe/


Myself and Bluebell Minor are researching units in Germany post 8 May 45, in early Jun 45 the regiment was allocated to 101st Anti-Aircraft Brigade RA command 8th Base Sub area of 8th Corps and on 6 Jun 45 stationed at Winterhude Stadt Park Hamburg, taking over from 1st Battalion Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry of 71st Infantry Brigade command 53rd (Welsh) Infantry Division, as yet no location prior to this.

Best of luck with your research

Can now add a bit more detail, the regiment was 2nd Army Troops and came under command 101st Anti-Aircraft Brigade on 2 Jun 45, then on 1 Nov 45 moved to 106th Anti-Aircraft Brigade as the 101st Anti-Aircraft Brigade was disbanded, do not have any changes of location, having only copies of the 8 Corps war dairies, so getting the regimental war dairies from Kew will be important for your research, however sure you will find the regiment remained in Hamburg until disbandment 31 Mar 46


Bluebell Minor and myself will appreciate any details you find from May 45 to disbandment, best of luck

 

Thanks Steve for those details - I'm now realising how much more complicated it all gets - I hadn't realised there was so much joining up with other regiments, brigades & commands etc.

You mention that the regiment was 2nd army troops - so what does that mean?

So when the regiment was allocated to the 101st & then later to the 106th Anti aircraft Brigade - how big is a brigade & is it made up of lots of individual regiments or how does it work?

 

Please note my research is post WW2

The 2nd Army of 21st Army Group had under command

1st Corps
3rd Infantry Division from 1st Canadian Army 6 May 45
49th (West Riding) Infantry Division from 1st Canadian Army 23 May 45
34th Armoured Brigade
9th Army Group Royal Artillery
115th (Independent) Infantry Brigade

8th Corps
11th Armoured Division
5th Infantry Division
15th (Scottish) Infantry Division
6th Guards Armoured Brigade
8th Army Group Royal Artillery

12th Corps
7th Armoured Division
53rd (Welsh) Infantry Division
4th Armoured Brigade
3rd Army Group Royal Artillery

30th Corps
Guards Armoured Division
79th Armoured Division to 21st Army Group 10 May 45
43rd (Wessex) Infantry Division
51st (Lowland) Infantry Division
52nd (Lowland) Infantry Division
8th Armoured Brigade
5th Army Group Royal Artillery

Army and Corps Troops were sent as and when required

By 11 June 1945 the Corps came under direct command 21st Army Group and became Corps Districts, except 12 Corps that moved to UK and disbanded, with responsibilities to 8th Corps District

1st Corps District
Guards Division
3rd Infantry Division
49th (West Riding) Infantry Division
53rd (Welsh) Infantry Division
34th Armoured Brigade
9th Army Group Royal Artillery
17th Army Group Royal Artillery
115th (Independent) Infantry Brigade

8th Corps District
7th Armoured Division
11th Armoured Division
15th (Scottish) Infantry Division
4th Armoured Brigade
8th Army Group Royal Artillery

30th Corps District
5th Infantry Division
43rd (Wessex) Infantry Division
51st (Lowland) Infantry Division
52nd (Lowland) Infantry Division to Belgium 17 Jun 45
8th Armoured Brigade
5th Army Group Royal Artillery

2nd Army disbanded 28 August 45

Normally an armoured division had two brigades and an infantry division three brigades, with three or more regiments/battalions in each, an Army Group Royal Artillery was effectively a brigade but had more units, each division had a headquarters Royal Artillery with five regiments, these became artillery brigades, there were also infantry brigades consisting of three former anti-aircraft regiments renumbered in the 600 series during WW2, these were sent as required for occupation duties

The anti-aircraft brigades were army troops, converting to infantry for the occupation role, and a brigade could have any number of regiments, by Jun 45 101st Anti-Aircraft Brigade had nine regiments

 

I've scanned the records on hopefully a better scanner to try & get a clearer better more readable copy

 

Delete

 

Hi all I have the history of the 99th london welsh H A A Regiment its the book the iwm hold it belonged to my father who was in 303 battery it has all the names of offices & men of 302 / 303 / 318 & 99th H A A Workshop R E M E

 

Mr Bright,

Welcome aboard, the opening post by Janice started this thread, she has not been aboard since March 2020, so may not see your update. Send her a message by clicking on her name and then 'Start a Conversation'. Alas we do not know what the result of her research was.

 

Hi davidbfpo many thanks clicked on her name typed message how do I send or does it just go
K R Bright I use middle name Roy again many thank

 

I have sent the message to Janice so hopefully she will pick it up and log onto the forum

regards
Clive

 

Hi CL1 Clive Many thanks Roy

 

Please can you let me know if Herbert Edward Betts 14535121 is included in this as I believe he was in the 99th London Welsh? Do you have anything you could send me copies of, if it costs you anything would be willing to reimburse you. I do want to go to the IWM at some point if you could point me in the right direction of what to ask or where to look I would be very grateful

 

Hi Dave
Herbert Edward Betts was in 303 Battery the same as my father his name is in the book.( knew each other I should think) Father was Lance Bombardier. His name Basil Roy Bright.
I already have copied the book in anticipation that some body would want it along with my father diary of locations,
Those in U K & Europe, These would fully show your relative movements as they were both in the same Battery.
I would be happy to send at no expense to you only happy to pass info.
I will put together as much as I have and forward.(including postcard of where they landed)
Send address to Email & will send asap (dont know how you do it private but believe there is away some one will tell you i am sure) If there is any info you have I have not could you please forward by return address will be within.
K.R.Bright (Roy)