A22 Churchill (MkIV) Tank WW2 Markings - Decisive

Hello chaps,

I'm embarking on a pen & ink drawing of the A22 Churchill (MkIV), Decisive, and I want to make sure that I get all the details right. The drawing will be black and white, so the colour of things isn't important, but I do want to use the correct numbers and markings.

Is there anything about the attached photo of Armagh - a MkIV that has been restored by Nigel Montgomery of the Churchill Tank Project - that wouldn't be correct for Decisive in WW2, other than the fact that Decisive would have had camouflage paint?

Would she have had numbers displayed in the same places? What would the numbers have been for a tank that was the Sergeants Tank of 5th Troop "A" squadron 145th regt RAC, 21st Tank Brigade? I'm currently waiting for the Tank Museum to get back to me regarding her T number.

Is there anything else that you feel I ought to include for maximum authenticity?

Any help and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Dawn

 

Dawn

Very odd restoration of a Mkiv Churchill - too many numbers all over the place - troop number NOT on front of Turret- no fancy base for "B" set antenna -

odd track covers - fancy extra cover to air louvres - NO escape door on side for co-driver - NO red white red at that position - on turret but favourite target spot
for anti-tanks so always covered in mud etc…

Cheers

 

Thanks Tom.

I didn't realise that the photos hadn't been reaching you - good job I posted on the forum!

How are the track covers supposed to look?

These two old photos that I found on the internet have very similar track covers, so I thought I was in the right area. Also both have the escape door on the side. I guess I need to track down some different photos.




I know this one has a Sherman turret, but it's the rest of it I was looking at...

I'll see what else I can track down.

Thanks again, Tom.

Dawn

 

Dawn
the lower photo is closer the track covers are in three pieces - the central piece was always discarded as it was always shot up and could jam the turret- and without that extra piece on the front before the nose cover- NO extra bit on the air louvres - the Besa Machine gun co axial with main gun - co-drivers door ok -
drivers lookout also Ok as this was a 2x 4 inch tempered glass..so pretty close now

Cheers

 

Official drawing. This is identical to your MkIV but with a welded turret instead of a cast one, making it a MkIII. Only difference on the hull are the exhaust covers as Tom says. These were fitted in NW Europe.

Markings depend on where the tank was being used, and by whom.

Mike

 

Thanks Tom and Mike, that's really useful information.

I've found a photo that shows a MkIV or VII with the central section of the track cover removed. That was going to be my next question, but I can see the position of it from the picture:



Hopefully I've got all the details I need, now. If the Tank Museum can't find the T number for me I might have to draw her as a muddy tank
She'll have her name on the air louvre to identify her, anyway.

Thanks again, and if I think of anything else I'll give you a shout.

Dawn

 

Dawn
That centre section of the track covers was really important as it did jam the Turret making the Tank useless for fighting - provided you remembered that it
was missing - one evening as we were laaguering in lines A - B - C squadrons an almighty scream was heard - immediately I thought about my friend Frank Alison in "C"
sqdn for some reason - sure enough - next morning I learned that he was in hospital. As a normal co-driver he had given the Gunner a break and did his fighting all day
and as we laaguered he stepped out onto the track as the Tank was still moving - thus one leg was hauled under the forward Track cover taking all skin and muscle away from the thigh bone - hence the screaming - he spent two weeks in hospital and returned to fight on none the worse - finally retired as Chief Detective Inspector of
the Stafford police and we are still in contact with each other after initially meeting at Birmingham Station on our way to join the Army at Bury St Edmonds way back
in December '42….unforgettable memories …

Cheers

 

Poor Frank! I'm so glad he made a full recovery and that he made it through the war - brilliant story, Tom!

I've just received an email from the Guards Museum. Someone suggested that I contact them because they might have some records for Decisive but they say that the archive material is kept by the regimental headquarters of each of the five regiments of Foot Guards. Would that be the 145th in this case? Sorry, I'm not very au fait with this sort of thing, but I'm learning all the time

I've also heard from the Tank Museum. They say that if we know Decisive's registration number - 2 numbers, 2 letters, 2 numbers - they might be able to track down her T number. Without the reg number there's not much hope, unless the regimental archives turn something up...

Was the troop number painted on the side of the turret, Tom?

Dawn

 

Hello Dawn,


I might not be able to help directly with the T census number but here are some numbers for Churchill’s from 145RAC from 1942.
A Sqn
T31625, T31630, T31724, T31879, T31963, T32449, T67999, T68008, T68500, T68772, T68773.
Other known names DECISIVE, DEFENDER, DESTROYER, DIOGENES 5 trp Leader.

B Sqn
T31631, T31975, T31982, T68219, T68480, T68584, T68861

C Sqn
T31079, T31147, T31151, T31554, T32209, T68261 DOROTHY ( from14 trp ), T68370, T68373, T68788, T68885. T68890, T172119 ( from 1943 ).
Other known names DASHING ( HQ ), DEBUTANTE, DINOSAUR 1trp Sgt, DOLORES 1 trp Leader, DREYFUS O.C., DYNAMITE 2 trp.

RHQ
T31571, T31576, T32035.

If you do manage to get a reply from the Tank Museum please post any details.

Cheers

Kevin

 

Dawn,

Depending on date that is a tank of 107 RAC of 34 Tank Brigade in Normandy. It looks like a VI due to the 75mm gun, and clear square crew escape hatches.

Its worth mentioning that there are a myriad of modifications authorised for Churchills prior to going to Normandy so it'd be worth checking Brigade/workshop/Regimental WDs to find what ones were likely to be on the Churchill you paint... but can get rather anal!

 

Dawn
Whoever asked you to contact the Guards must think that the war started on D Day - nothing to do with them we were 145th ROYAL ARMOURED CORPS - in fact 21st Tank Bde - long before the Guards Armoured were thought about……

Swipers Tank is a MK V11 being attended to by the Reme's LAD with their Avre behind- wouldn't worry about modifications as we didn't have any - we were too busy finding out what needed changing for Normandy after the Churchill was nearly cancelled until Longstop
Hill in Tunisia.

Kevin has the best account with name and numbers - but only 11 out of 19 - 5th Troop - we didn't have our troop numbers anywhere
just the "A" squadron Triangle - our Tank names were Diogines-Lt. Douse RIP- Decisive- Sgt Williams RIP - Defender-Cpl Harman
The German Panther we acquired later in Italy was called - naturally enough - DESERTER…numbers are tricky as they weren't important -
it's only recently become important to forum members…and historians - no idea why


Cheers

 

Hello Dawn,

I have been looking at some of my references and the 145th Regt RAC were the Duke of Wellingtons and they served in Tunisia. Their Churchills had a distinct camouflage of Sand stripes over the Green base and also their radio antennas were bent backwards. Very few markings but a squadron letter painted large in sand on the side of the rear turret box on one picture. One photo I have has the track guard by the exhaust and the front guards over the sprocket missing. The picture is on Page 51 of British Tank markings and Names by BT White. If you want a copy of the picture I could scan it for you. The other picture is on page 110 of Mr Churchills Tank by David Fletcher and no markings on the side of the vehicle and the same Green \ Sand scheme and bent antenna and all track guards intact I have also found a colour side view of the same scheme sported by a Churchill III of the 142nd in Tunisia.
Let me know if this is the scheme you want and I will scan the pictures for you.

Kind regards,

Will

 

Will
IF you have been reading all of the posts on this thread you will have gathered that I was a member of the Sergeants Tank

in 5th Troop "A" squadron 145th RAC…and you are quite right as they were formed from 8th Battalion of the Duke of Wellingtons in

early 1941 and third member of 21st Army Tank Brigade - whereas 9th Battalion was formed into 146th RAC and served in Burma.

The 142RAC you mention was formed from the Suffolk Regiment and served in 25th Army Tank bde alongside the 21st in Algeria - Tunisia

and Italy and both 145th and 142 were broken up near Cesena in Northern Italy in Dec 1944 to replace casualties from the Gothic Line

battles as there were no reinforcements coming in from the UK…

You may also be correct in the colour of the camouflage as that was never a concern to us at anytime - fighting battles was always

most important…… regarding the antenna's laying backwards - NO sir - at anytime - this seemed to be prevalent in NWE not Italy

however it will be interesting to see your photo's…

Cheers

 

Swiper's tank is NOT a Mk VII - not with a square sponson door. Mk VI I reckon - cast Mk IV type turret with a 75mm gun.

Chris

 

Chris -
Never did see Mk V1 nor Mk V11 for that matter - or the Mk1V Turret with a 75mm - best we had - late in '44 was the Mk V cs with the 95mm bombard - forgot about the co driver escape door…

Cheers

 

I do not visit this forum very often, so please forgive this late addition to this thread - I hope that someone is still looking!

My late father, Sgt Eric Pain, was a 'tank commander' with 145 Regt in Tunisia and Italy. Unfortunately I only have incomplete memories of what he told me, and one particular frustration for me is that I did ask him the name of his tank, but I've forgotten what he said! I know that it was a girl's name that began with 'D', and that it was an 'out-of-fashion' name that made me wince a bit. The name "Doreen" keeps coming back to me, but I could be wrong. I'm fairly certain that he was in 'B' Squadron.

I have made my best shot of illustrating his tank, using a well known Tunisia photo as the basis, and here it is;

iGNORE the Milan background, that is just 'poetic licence' to link various parts of his story in one painting. However, I am very clear in my memory of his description of the camouflage used in Tunisia - it was local mud daubed on the overall factory green finish. He also did tell me about 145's aerials being bent backwards, so I do think that there is validity to that story.

After the Gothic Line battles he was one of those who was absorbed into other units, in his case the The Queens Bays, which tunic uniform I still have, and I have illustrated elsewhere on this Forum.

Recently my sister found a 'lost' photo from his days in Italy, and mainly for Tom Canning's benefit I am posting it here, as he might recognise some of the faces;

Written on the reverse of the photo is that it was taken at Cesenatico, Italy, in July 1946 and that it shows the HQ Sgts 12th RTR. My father is in the front row 3rd from left. He was demobbed in August 1946 with the rank of SQMS, although his surviving tunic is that of a Sgt Major.

I hope that this has been of some interest.

 

Acklington

In the time I was in 145th RAC- as a wireless operator - from Bone in North Africa until I was wounded at San Martino in

the Gothic Line at NO time were the antennas bent backwards as I could always reach them if they were damaged in action - so much

for that validity - the photo is of the HQ of 12 RTR whom we seldom met unless to play football - and at that time I was with

16/5th Lancers in Austria as 145th RAC had been disbanded at Cesena in the December of '44 along with 142nd RAC of 25th TB

Cheers

PS - away too much yellow in the camouflage for Tunisia...

 

Many thanks for the prompt response Tom, and I've just looked up the three 145 Regt photos that I have used for the painting;






[NB my apologies to the original publishers as I have mislaid the credits for these photos. I'll happily find and add them if requested.]

All three photos are stated to have been taken in Tunisia, and in all three the bent aerials can be seen.

The mud camouflage in my photo of my painting is indeed too yellow, but this is a result of the poor photo with exaggerated colours. The original painting is far more subdued and a 'sandy mud' colour.

Also of interest, in the third (rear-view) photo above, is the red-white-red AFV recognition marking. I think that this is often missed in descriptions of the 145 Regt Churchill tank colour scheme.

 

Aklington

Never did see a Churchill of 145th Regt RAC with such appalling camouflage NOR a bent " A" set antenna -note that the "B"

set is straight up… why no names on air intake starting with the letter D ….?


Cheers

 

I'm definately no tank expert (aircraft are my thing), but I recall that the originals of those three photos were captioned as being "training exercises" in Tunisia. The middle photo shows the Churchills still with fore and aft track covers inplace, which were later removed?

I also suppose that if and when it did rain in Tunisia, then any mud camouflage would soon wash off. So any particular tank may have gone through umpteen variations of mud painting? Also, the colour of the mud may have varied with each location used?

The red-white-red AFV recognition marking in the last photo looks to be quite crudely painted.

My father also recalled the captured German tank they named "Deserter", and he commented on the much superior quality of its gun-sight, compared to British tanks.

It is a shame that so few photos have come to light of 145 Regt Churchills, and I am not aware of any showing the names that were applied, presumably later. If aviation practice is anything to go by, the application of individual names on fighting machines was discouraged by the heirarchy until, that is, actual combat was started.