Airborne Training Corps - research queries

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by DPritchard, Aug 11, 2021.

Tags:
  1. DPritchard

    DPritchard Member

    Thanks for this
     
    JimHerriot likes this.
  2. DPritchard

    DPritchard Member

    I am afraid I never met him because he emigrated, they look fairly similar - the photos, it's difficult to say! The JH could be Joseph Harold (Grant). Do you know what the S.I in front of it may mean please?
     
    JimHerriot likes this.
  3. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    "S. I." Sergeant Instructor.

    Kind regards, always,

    Jim.
     
    DPritchard likes this.
  4. DPritchard

    DPritchard Member

    Thanks Jim
     
    JimHerriot likes this.
  5. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    I would confirm that because of the dates of his course he would not have participated in the D Day operations and he is not listed as participating in the Arnhem drop. He would not have been posted into the Parachute Regiment. Because of the high level physical fitness required by Airborne forces members of the APTC were attached to each battalion as Physical Training Instructors (PTI), normally serving with HQ Company. The Parachute instructors at Ringway were members of the Royal Air Force. In my Father’s battalionion (an airlanding battalion) the PTI served as the CO’s bodyguard in battle.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2021
    DPritchard and JimHerriot like this.
  6. DPritchard

    DPritchard Member

    That is interesting thank you - so unlikely now he was seconded to parachute regiment. Ok - can't believe that the PTI served as the CO's bodyguard in battle!
     
  7. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    I think you may possibly have misunderstood horsapassenger"s reply in post #25 above. He states "Because of the high level physical fitness required by Airborne forces members of the APTC were attached to each battalion as Physical Training Instructors (PTI), normally serving with HQ Company." (within a parachute unit).

    In connection with this, I have my thoughts on which unit (prompted by one of your photographs from above).

    More to follow.

    Kind regards, always,

    Jim.
     
    DPritchard likes this.
  8. DPritchard

    DPritchard Member

    Hi Jim - no you are correct,I misread this thanks. Ok - look forward to what you might find! I appreciate what you are all doing on here.
     
    JimHerriot likes this.
  9. DPritchard

    DPritchard Member

    Here's another picture I have found, though don't think anymore clues here.
     

    Attached Files:

    JimHerriot likes this.
  10. DPritchard

    DPritchard Member

    And another picture from '45.
     

    Attached Files:

    JimHerriot likes this.
  11. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything


    Dear DPritchard, all that follows supposition on my part, a hunch if you like (based on the names written on your photo, which I've adjusted a little for clarity, I hope you don't mind). If nothing else it illustrates the importance of obtaining your great uncle's service records, as per Tony56 and Tricky Dicky's posts earlier in this thread.

    Joseph Harold Grant Harry on the left NAMES.jpg



    21st Independent Parachute Company carried out an exercise in May 1944, taking off from Netheravon. Amongst the Company on said exercise were prachutists (amongst others);

    Pte Fred Lee, Pte Whitby, and Sgt Fred Weatherley (notwithstanding your great uncle or person unknown has recorded one name as "Weatherhead" as previously mentioned, so this may all be Balls with a capital "B" on my part).

    It's a good stick. Your great uncle and "Lee" have made classic exits, ramrod straight, literally stood to attention, with "Whitby" appearing to "kick out of twists" (I've made a few descents, slightly different in that my generation, after Suez, were fortunate enough to jump with a reserve 'chute too!)

    My reasoning; given that 21st Independent Parachute Company had received many new replacements since returning to the UK from North Africa/Sicily/Italy, it may have been that your great uncle was attached to same to help the chaps attain (and re-attain) peak physical condition.

    Please feel free to scoff/get me to reel my neck in, as I realise I've taken a liberty with your photograph (for which I hope I may be forgiven).

    Hopefully other good folks who frequent the forum will chime in, but again, only your great uncle's service records may get to the most accurate answers to be had.

    Kind regards, always,

    Jim.
     
    DPritchard, davidbfpo and Owen like this.
  12. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Re Post 19 two photos. The left hand photo has a cap badge that is blurred and is unlike those of the paras alongside. The APTC cap badge is below and is from Wiki: Royal Army Physical Training Corps - Wikipedia

    [​IMG]

    In my opinion the shape of the cap badge helps to indicate the photo is of a APTC soldier.
     
    DPritchard and JimHerriot like this.
  13. DPritchard

    DPritchard Member

    Jim, thank you for your valued input. I had a quick look at 21st Independent Parachute Company - it looks very interesting. I think you are right, that I should apply for his records and I will. However, I realise this may take many months as I am still waiting for MOD records for someone that I sent off in April. Probably a backlog due to people searching in the Pandemic!
     
    JimHerriot likes this.
  14. DPritchard

    DPritchard Member

    Thank you for clarifying this.
     
    JimHerriot likes this.
  15. David Woods

    David Woods Active Member

    As Horsapassenger has previously said, CSM/I. J. H. Grant was on Parachute Training Course No.117, from 21st May, 1944 to 8th June, 1944. So he wasn't qualified to jump any earlier. Perhaps there was a later exercise?

    Your supposition may be correct, it's the timing that concerns me.

    I don't know how many A.P.T.C. instructors were allotted to the 21st Independent Parachute Company at any one time. There could have been more than one.

    6844927 S.I. Ernest Nutter, A.P.T.C., M.M. (P.O.W.), dropped with them at Arnhem (see War Diary, Pegasus Archive).

    S.I. Frank Buck, A.P.T.C., was with the Company post Arnhem and went with them to Norway (see Paradata).

    I have listed:
    6148106 Cpl. Fred W. Weatherley
    7904485 Pte. Frederick John Ronald Patrick Lee

    but not unfortunately a

    Pte. Whitby (his number and initials if you have them please).
     
    JimHerriot and DPritchard like this.
  16. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    Hello David, apologies for the delay in responding (book excavation required).

    Private Whitby is a bit of an enigma as far as my searching goes. The only place I have ever seen mention of him in the past is in Ron Kent's "FIRST IN - PARACHUTE PATHFINDER COMPANY" (which I've since dug out to make sure my memory wasn't completely addled)

    Ron Kent has him listed in the appendix "Nominal Roll - Other Ranks and Index", Page 172 (and I'm kicking myself for not having dug it out beforehand as it likely would have flagged up the capital "B" in Balls, as to the likelihood of my previous erroneous theory being just that -erroneous!).

    Sgt Fred Weatherley and Pte Fred Lee are in there too (so my memory's not completely shot to bits) and are mentioned within the main body of the book, whereas Private Whitby only features in the "Nominal Roll" appendix.

    And, from Ron Kent's appendix key, Private Whitby is marked "N/P", as in Norway and Palestine (another reason to give me the "B" in Balls!)

    Earlier I'd discounted the possibility of the photo being from Sgt Grants parachute course, as the likelihood of already experienced parachutists (Fred Weatherley, Fred Lee) being on a "refresher" seemed completely out of the question (the only other possibility, as you've surmised, being a later exercise, post Arnhem at least).

    And, to cap it all, No mention of Sgt Grant within "First In", whereas other APTC chaps are (Sgt Buck for example). I now stand (sit) duly chastened!

    Happy to post up the whole of Ron Kent's nominal roll if requested, in the meantime here's the Pte Whitby reference.

    Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways David, always appreciated (I'll try to drink less and sleep more in the future!)

    Kind regards, still learning in my dotage,

    Jim.

    First In cover.jpg

    Pte Whitby.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2021
    David Woods and DPritchard like this.
  17. Pat Atkins

    Pat Atkins Well-Known Member

    Just listening to an IWM recording of the actor Richard Todd talking about his time as an airborne officer, and he mentions (Reel 5, 17 mins in) a CSM in Normandy, and another in Palestine, who were both APTC men.

    Recording is linked on another thread, or use this link: Todd, Richard Andrew Palethorpe (Oral history)

    Cheers, Pat
     
    JimHerriot likes this.
  18. DPritchard

    DPritchard Member

    Thank you Pat. I just had a listen to some of reel 5 where you recommended. It was very interesting - where they were preparing for the crossing of the Rhine and he said that his CSM was an APTC and a very good soldier, whose whole background was army physical training and the bit after about another CSM in Palestine - Sgt Evans being an exAPTC. Pity he didn't say a name for his CSM for the Rhine! Quite interested to hear the bit prior to 17 mins in which it was said that regiments with their own APTC instructors were parachutists in the parachute regiment, but they still retained their army physical training core nomenclature and he think they wore para wings.

    I am a bit confused now because Joseph Harold's brother, Norman who I believe was (anti-tank) Royal Artillery and who said he was a commando (still waiting for MOD research), was also physically very fit and was an army physical training instructor certainly post-war, but there is a picture of Norman at Ringway (written on back of a photo) at some point during the war, which I now know to be a parachute training school! Any ideas/theories on that one please??
     
    JimHerriot likes this.
  19. Pat Atkins

    Pat Atkins Well-Known Member

    Can't help, alas! But good luck with your research (some amazing insights have already been provided by Forum members, it's such a knowledgeable place). Service records will be invaluable when you get them. My uncle Den was a PTI - Royal Signals originally but no idea beyond that - hence my interest.

    Pat
     
    JimHerriot and DPritchard like this.
  20. DPritchard

    DPritchard Member

    Thank you
     
    JimHerriot likes this.

Share This Page