Allied POW Liberations Before 11 April 1945

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Buffnut453, Dec 14, 2017.

  1. Buffnut453

    Buffnut453 Member

    Probably, yes. I have a copy of his death certificate from the sub-district of Highworth in Wilts.
     
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  2. Buffnut453

    Buffnut453 Member

    That certainly looks like the right person, despite the rank being wrong.
     
  3. amberdog45

    amberdog45 Senior Member

    I have my doubts too about that McGough. I only noticed his rank difference when I glanced at it a second time. Maybe a false lead.
     
  4. Buffnut453

    Buffnut453 Member

    Yeah...I also found a Pvt J Ridings of KORR in the POW lists on FindMyPast but, again, the rank is wrong so it could be a false positive. I wish the St.Helens Reporter had just provided the initials of the pallbearers. That would have simplified things considerably.

    I'm holding out hope that a German POW Index Card survived for Frank. I think that's the most likely (perhaps only) way I'll discover anything about his time as a POW.
     
  5. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Dont take the ranks as gospel, sometimes early POW's were lifted in Rank during their POW time. So he could have been captured as a Private and after a few years been upgraded to a Lance Corporal

    I must admit I have heard of it more frequently in the RAF side - Promotions whilst a pow

    TD
     
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  6. Buffnut453

    Buffnut453 Member

    Hi TD,

    Concur. I'm aware of promotions while a POW but I thought that was more on the officer side of things. Also, it doesn't explain why LCpl McGough would be reduced in rank back to Guardsman. It would be a bit harsh (and rapid) for someone captured as a LCpl in 1940 to be immediately busted back to Gdsm within 10 days of his liberation and repatriation.

    Another factor makes me unconvinced about McGough. Stalag XVII-B was evacuated in early April 1945 but the camp itself was only captured in early May. The evacuated prisoners were only liberated at the end of April. Thus there's no easy explanation for how McGough made it back to the UK around 11 April. It's possible he was in a convoy that somehow managed to reach American lines but how they got there remains lost in the fog of war.

    To be honest, chasing the pallbearers may be something of a wild goose chase. I'm unlikely to get anything unless someone has already researched one of them...and that's a long shot (not impossible but improbable). However, I'm not giving up until something emerges. The info has to be out there and I hope the German Index Card will provide the answers.

    Cheers,
    Mark
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
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  7. Buffnut453

    Buffnut453 Member

    Ok...got my first response back from the National Archives regarding my FOI request. Unsurprisingly, they want documentary proof that Francis Lee is not still living. I've duly provided that info so hopefully things will start moving forward now. Wish me luck!
     
  8. Buffnut453

    Buffnut453 Member

    Ok...in a shocking display of alacrity, the National Archives sent me an image of Frank Lee's German POW Index card which arrived this afternoon, just a few hours after I provided his death certificate as proof that he was no longer living. I uploaded an image of the index card but am having some problems displaying it in this thread, so here's the linky:

    Francis Lee German POW Index Card (UKNA WO 416-220) | WW2Talk

    If I'm reading this correctly, he was sent first to STALAG XI-B and then moved to STALAG VIII-C on 25 Nov 1944. That doesn't explain how he came to be liberated and flown home to Blighty on 11 Apr 1945, but at least we now know where he was located. I'm guessing he was involved in the evacuation of STALAG VIII and the associated horrendous march westwards during the early part of 1945.

    I've had a quick search for books about STALAG VIII and "The March" but if anyone has specific recommendations I'd be delighted to hear them.
     
  9. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

  10. Buffnut453

    Buffnut453 Member

  11. alieneyes

    alieneyes Senior Member

  12. Enigma1003

    Enigma1003 Member

    The POW in this story states he was liberated from Stalag VIIIC on 16th FEB 1945. Then about 48 days journey, finally from Odessa.
    Private John Duffy
    Mike
     
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  13. Buffnut453

    Buffnut453 Member

    Thanks for sharing this, Mike. The timeline could conceivably match the liberation date for Frank Lee. Sadly, this possible avenue doesn't align with the newspaper article which claimed Frank was liberated by US soldiers. It's entirely possible that the newspaper article was wrong but the Odessa route also would result in Frank being deposited at an east coast port, probably a northeast coast port, which makes it odd that a seriously malnourished man would be flown from there to Swindon. I'd have thought he'd be admitted immediately to a more local hospital.

    That said, this fascinating story about Pvt Duffy clearly illustrates there were multiple routes taken from STALAG VIII-C to liberty. Perhaps there another small group managed to make their way to American lines, and Frank was part of that group?
     
  14. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    I would suggest that 100% of ex POW's in Odessa departed there by boat/ship for Naples, Marseilles/Alexandria then possibly by air, it would have been a long journey.

    If I recall correctly the first to leave Odessa were in either Feb or March 1945

    TD
     
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  15. Buffnut453

    Buffnut453 Member

    Doh...I should check my geography before spouting!

    As you point out, it would be a very long journey which, again, doesn't align with my relative. I imagine a malnourished ex-POW would be hospitalized before getting back to the UK somewhere along the route thru Odessa. I lean towards Frank taking a more direct route, perhaps as part of The March, towards US lines in the early months of 1945....but it would be nice to get past conjecture courtesy of some documentary evidence.
     
  16. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Thats what the forum is all about - I guess now you have deleted 1 avenue which is a good thing, it means there are less to follow and one of those must be the right one

    TD
     
  17. Buffnut453

    Buffnut453 Member

    Thanks for this suggestion. I've obtained a copy of the book and am scrutinizing it for any clues about how Frank may have been liberated. Sadly, STALAG VIII-C doesn't appear in the index, nor is it identified on the map of POW camps at the start of the book...but there may still be a few clues if I dig deep enough.
     
  18. Buffnut453

    Buffnut453 Member

    I think I've identified the most plausible explanation for Frank Lee's early liberation. The discovery of his German index card last identified him moving to STALAG VIII-C on 25 Nov 1944. According to the websites below, STALAG VIII-C was evacuated on 8 Feb 1945, the POWs marching to STALAG IX-B at Bad Orb and arriving there on 16 March:
    The March (1945)
    The March (1945) - Wikipedia

    Apparently, STALAG IX-B was liberated on 2 Apr 1945 by US forces, which aligns with the timeline for Frank's liberation and move back to the UK. I also found some personal accounts from soldiers who were liberated at STALAG IX-B. A couple of them were also at STALAG XI-B and/or STALAG VIII-C:

    Stalag IXB

    Again, none of this info is solid evidence but the timing fits and it aligns with the facts I have collated about Frank. I think this will remain my operating theory until an alternative with stronger evidence emerges.
     
  19. Buffnut453

    Buffnut453 Member

    Hi Steve,

    Just resurrecting this thread in case you can offer some additional advice. I took your recommendation and entered my application on 15 January. It seems my request was accepted but I haven't heard anything since. I know you said 2-3 months but we're now sitting at over 4 months. Sadly, there doesn't seem to be any communication path to find out if my application is still in progress...which leads me to conclude that I just have to sit tight and wait for some response. Do you have any other suggestions?

    Many thanks,
    Mark
     
  20. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

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