Arbeits Kommando 844/4 Thale, Harz Mtns, Germany

Hi,

Welcome to the forum.

As Katherine hasn’t signed into the forum since late 2021 I’ve sent her a message to alert her to your post.

Steve

 

Hi Steve, yes I noticed it was an old thread but it would be good to know of any new information, however brief, regarding Marlag T, Thale itself and the camp's liberation. Thanks, John H

 

Hello John,
Unfortunately, I have not got to Thale yet, but in late 2021 I met a 101 year old veteran of HMS Bedouin who was in Thale. I will have to look up my records to see what I have on Thale. I can post what I know about the veteran's time in the camp and my Grandfather's.
He recalled my Grandfather which was amazing. I have been engaged since 2019 in trying to get HMS Bedouin's part in the Malta Convoys in 1942 recognised. In Valletta, Malta, there is a Memorial to all the ships who participated in the Malta Convoys between 1940-43, but for some unknown reason Bedouin's name has been omitted although all the other ships which participated in Operation Harpoon are listed. I feel that after just over 80 years since its sinking, such an omission should be rectified as a tribute to those who died and those who spent over 3 years as POWs.

Katharine

 

Hi Katharine, yes, time flies and Covid scuppered many a planned trip. I too would like to visit Thale if only to visit some of the many local hotels that Tommy worked in. Tommy was also a veteran of the Battle of Crete and someday I would like to visit the area in which he saw action there. There was also a second 'camp' at Thale or possibly another 'compound'. But what I don't understand is the need for the wire cutters. Tommy was free to come and go from the camp and even had (at least) one girlfriend in the town. Also, he kept a notebook as well as a diary and I have at least 20 named fellow prisoners from that and the diary. So I would love to see anything you have about the Bedouin veteran you mention and your grandfather (who I know is not mentioned by Tommy). I look forward to this. Many thanks, John

 

Hello John,
I assume you have seen a map of Thale posted by Stefan in 2016 with an arrow showing where the camp was in Thale.
I attach a plan of the camp(hopefully) and a photograph of it c.1950. From an earlier post I note that there were possibly 4 smaller camps. As I mentioned in 2016, my Grandfather escaped on 9th April 1945 with 'two others' from the camp. The veteran who I met in November 2021 has since passed away, but he and the others from the camp were marched from the camp towards Magdeburg for a couple of days. I will have to dig out the notes I made when I saw him.
I hope the above helps a little. I will look out what I can for later in the week.
Katharine

 

Thanks for these attachments Katharine, very useful indeed. I have that map of Thale but don't remember where I got it! Yes I think there were 4 associated camps, at least one of them in nearby Blankenburg (which has a Thale postal designation) where Russian civilians and military were held. There are graves and a memorial in that town to 123 Russians I believe . Tommy Shields made a couple of attempts at 'escaping' but returned to the near empty camp as it was safer. Clearly Arbeitskommando 844 had camps which differed in status as Tommy had few restrictions on his movements. He names all who joined him on his two serious escape bids as well as naming others who set off and did not return so it would be interesting to get the name of your veteran. Thanks again, John

 

Katharine, I just wanted to ask you, or anyone else on this thread, if you have seen specific reference to Tommy Shields being in Kdo. 844/4. The reason I seek confirmation is because 844/5 was a Thale camp which which I have found listed as a camp supplying or supporting "various firms". This wouldexactly describe Tommy's work on what he called "Betrieb". The same source lists 844/4 as engaged in "Digging/Building" work which again, fits your description of your grandfather's work. So, have you seen mention of Tommy Shields as being in, specifically, 844/4? Thanks for your help.
John H

 

Unfortunately I cannot contribute much more:
Thale was the location of a naval signals depot (Marine-Nachrichtenmittel-Arsenal). But the personnel usually had little to do with PoW matters.
However, the British naval personnel in Thale were administratively subordinate to Marlag/Milag Nord Westertimke.
Here it can be assumed that this depot at least organised the supply of these PoW, because it was, so to speak, an internal naval matter.

There is a tiny snippet about this from the diary of one Peter Tattersall (pg.95):
https://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/s4/f2/dsk3/ftp04/MQ62294.pdf

His column of PoW arrived in Thale on 8 April and were supplied from ArbKdo 844/4 stocks delivered from the depot described above.
Incidentally, it is a very vivid description of the incredible privations during the evacuation marches.

 

Thanks Itdan. Yes, Tommy Shields continues to consider himself a POW of Marlag und Milag Nord even after being in Thale for over a year. But I'm still unsure how the organizational overlap between Marlag or Stalag and Arbeitkommandos worked in practice but Tommy Shields never mentions Arbeitkommando in his diary or notebooks although that is exactly the sort of work programme he was on. It may be that the terms 'Marlag T' and 'ArbKdo' were simply terms referring to the same camp/unit.
Peter Tattersall's account of the march is very vivid indeed and shows the terrible conditions on these evacuation marches. Tommy Shields account of his break for freedom is in stark contrast although he started from very different circumstances. Tommy's diary has pages missing around the time of Peter Tattersall's encounter with Kdo844/4 but it is interesting that Tommy is away from his base in the centre of Thale on 10th April but one of Tommy's closest co-workers in Thale is a man called 'Wiggie' Bennet althoughTommy doesn't mention his rank in his diary. Tommy, Wiggie and two others make their first attempt to get away from the camp as the chaos engulfs them and it is the day after the delivery of parcels to Peter Tattersall and his comrades. I am sure it is the same Bennet and I would guess that Tommy was involved in the parcel delivery as well. Thanks for your information.
John H

 

Each POW camp was basically responsible for the prisoners registered there.
This also applied to the externally deployed labour commandos, who remained legally and administratively subordinate to this POW camp.
In short, the camp always remained the same, but the allocation to labour detachments could change.

The respective camps in which the labour commandos were housed externally were usually administered by the local authorities in trust for the companies in which the prisoners of war were deployed. The costs incurred for rent, accommodation and food were charged to the participating companies as a levy.
Incidentally, the standard hourly wage for prisoners of war was RM 0.33 for unskilled workers in the construction industry and otherwise 60% of the comparable German rates.

In the case of Thale, however, there was a naval facility on site that took over at least some of the administrative and supply tasks described above. I would assume that this was administratively easier for the navy than the diversion via the civilian authorities.

 

If you should ever find yourself in Thale, I have created an overlay.
As you know, Georgenstraße is now Musestieg.
Georg-Büchner-Straße did not yet exist, Stecklenberger Weg no longer exists, but Wotansblick still does.
The yellow dot marks approximately where the photo in post #45 was taken.
The terraced houses in the photo there were built between 1951 and 1959.
Geschichte

 

Thanks for this explanation regarding 'externally deployed labour commandos' Itdan, very useful context. The overlay puts the camp exactly where I thought it would have been but it's good to compare it with the earlier photograph.
John H

 

...just a further thought Itdan - while, as you say, 'the camp always remained the same', and 'the allocation to labour detachments could change', is that to say that while the camps were fixed, physical places, the labour detachments e.g. ArbKdo 844/4, were non-physical admin/labour entities run by military or civilian personnel who had no fixed role in a particular camp?

 

According to my understanding: Yes
An "Arbeitskommando" was merely an administrative unit to which persons are assigned.
These were still camp inmates, but they were assigned somewhere outside.

 

Okay, that's very useful to know. It also explains why Tommy Shields makes no mention of ArbKdo 844/5 or any other work unit. Thank you.
John H

 

I do have a certain penchant for pedantry >sigh<

attachment 1
1 - The actual naval signals arsenal
2 - Warehouse for radio tubes (still exists)
3 - Barracks camp "Auf den Höhen" Georgstr.
Here were housed
Repair workshops
Training rooms
Storage rooms
Kindergarten for naval personnel
Prison camp for English prisoners of war

attachment 2
Original plan of the naval signals arsenal

attachment 3
Original Letterhead

 

This is fantastic detail, thanks for the pedantry!!!!! It gives an idea of how Thale was not just a small sleepy Harz mountain resort but a town totally immersed in the German war effort. The Bode valley and surrounding villages did have many hotels and even in 1945 they were still catering for tourists, many of whom I'm sure would have been German officers, but clearly the town was still focused on war-related industry.
Thanks again Itdan,
John H

 

Well, then there's one (last) follow-up:
The Thale ironworks specialised in steel helmets: in WWI they produced 2.5 million there. How many there were in WWII I don't know, but the steel helmet that was later adopted by the NVA was also developed and manufactured there.
It was where the previously posted map says DDR MUSEUM THALE.

As for the hotels there: a lot of Arsenal personnel were indeed housed there (see map):
1 - Hotel Hubertusbad (demolished in 1990): Accommodation for senior staff, Hollerith system (electromechanical punch card machine).
2- Villa Heimburg (today a hotel): Drawing and design offices
3- Hotel Ritter Bodo (demolished in 1993): Administration and archives
4 - Restaurant Meissner (today insurance office): Drawing office

Well, that's about it for my sources of information.
I wish you much success with your further research.

 

This is great Itdan. As with a lot of historical research, only 10% finds its way onto a printed page but that doesn't stop us following our desire to know more. Ijn this case I am very pleased to say that Tommy Shields, in his POW diary, frequently mentions working in Hotel Hubertusbad, Villa Heimburg and Hotel Ritter Bodo. It is interesting to be able to say what other functions they had and causes me to think that Tommy Shields, and ArbKdo 844/5, were goods delivery, maintenance workers and general labourers rather than tourist hotel workers - although there must have been some of that as Tommy takes pleasure in recording his days working in a hotel wine cellar! All very interesting Itdan, thank you for your time and effort.
John H

 

Hello John H (Itdan too for the additional info)

In answer to your query on 4th July, I have read Tommy Shields' diary too; I have not seen any specific reference to 844/4, he refers to satellite camp at Thale if I recall correctly. The HMS Bedouin veteran I met, John Headley, was also in a camp at Thale from January 1944, as was my Grandfather. My Grandfather was definitely involved in 'building work' as per the document I have seen, but John Headley, with a fellow POW was taken under German guard into Thale daily, to a carpenter's workshop. He told me in one of his conversations that a short time after arriving, he and others were asked by the German guards to write down their civilian profession and hand it in. As I recall, John and his pal decided that there would be no call for civil service work, so both decided to claim they were carpenters. Neither dreamt that they would be asked to utilise such 'skills'. One morning both were summoned and taken to the Carpenter's workshop. Well, they prevaricated and time wasted etc, their output was not impressive either in quantity or quality! The acid test came when the Guard wanted a picture frame. Again, they put off doing much and did the minimum they could do each day, but as time went on the Guard began to get impatient , the War was drawing to a close and he wanted this picture frame. They did produce a picture frame, 'a very rickety affair' in John's words. He commented that they thought the Guard was not convinced by their woodwork skills.
It had never occurred to me until I spoke to John that the POWs had different 'jobs'. My Grandfather's job was outside the camp in the forest.
Apologies for delay in replying-family life took over!

Katharine