Armoured Regiment War Establishment, Korea 1951

Discussion in 'Postwar' started by Don Juan, Feb 1, 2021.

  1. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    Bit of a long shot this one, but does anyone have an armoured regiment WE for circa 1951?

    I'm particularly interested in the size of the carrier troop, and the allotment of tank dozers. Also whether the full tank establishment was 52 or 64 tanks.

    Thanks in advance...
     
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  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Passing coincidence. Of no help I'm afraid.

    My old man only just told me we have War Diary & papers for his uncle's service on Cents in Korea.
    (Served in Africa & Italy. Crap time by all accounts. Then recalled from reserve 5 years later. Said he cried for days after getting the letter...)
    Obviously can't access to see if stuff might help those looking at Korea, but making a mental note to lay hands on it soon as.
     
  3. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    Thanks VP. I'm taking a big interest in Centurions in Korea at the moment (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) so any info is gratefully received.
     
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  4. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

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  5. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    I don't have the WE (I had to draw the line somewhere, and it turned out to be around 1947...) but there is a diagram showing the communications layout in the 1952 issue of 'procedure for radio telephony', signals training, all arms, pamphlet no.7. I didn't get chance to scan it tonight but should do tomorrow.

    In brief, and assuming I'm interpreting the symbols correctly, it outlines four tanks per Troop, with four Troops per Squadron, plus four more at SHQ. Allowing for the usual four at RHQ that would give a Regiment 64 at full strength. It is possible that 52 was the lower establishment figure, allowing for one tank per Troop or one Troop per Squadron to be inactivated. There's mention of a dozer at SHQ and a Recce Troop of perhaps seven vehicles.

    There's the briefest of outlines here on the Armoured Regiment circa 1950;

    The Royal Armoured Corps in the Cold War, 1946–1990

    The kind of vague detail that would drive me mad 20 years ago!

    Gary
     
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  6. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

  7. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    I had to crop them a lot to get the files below 2MB, the second scan is just missing the links to Engrs and LO on the bottom left and right respectively.

    There was a WE issued for an Armoured Regiment in the period Jan-Mar 1947, ref II/157/2, held in WO24/963. I don't know if that formed the basis for the above, or whether there was a local variation used in the Korean War.

    Gary
     
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  8. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    Thanks very much Gary!

    I'll get hold of that WE file if the National Archives ever re-opens.

    8th Hussars took 53 Centurions to Korea in Oct-Nov 1950, but by the time of the Imjin battles in Apr 51 they were up to 64 tanks, so it looks like they were innitially on an LE.

    Their Recce Troop initially was six Cromwells and one Daimler Scout Car, but after the infamous Cooperforce disaster at least some of the Cromwells were replaced with Daimler Armoured Cars. I'm not sure if the carrier troop was a sub-unit of the Recce Troop or a separate entity in itself. My sense of neatness makes me suspect the former...

    Dozers were Centaur Dozers, but these may have been replaced by Sherman Dozers by October 1951. There is a bit of confusion here, as the 8th Hussars were often partnered up with 55 Field Squadron RE, who also may have had Centaur Dozers, so on the rare occasions that Dozers were employed it is difficult to tell who was doing what.
     
  9. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    Just been inspired to go into the bowels of my hard drive to find this:

    1952.jpg

    This is from WO 279/765 Notes on the British Army 1952, which I never thought would come in useful!

    No sign of a dedicated carrier troop here, which reinforces my suspicion that this was part of 8th Hussars' Recce Troop.
     
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  10. Tony Chadwick

    Tony Chadwick New Member

    Have enclosed a pdf of 1953 Divisional Tank Regiment which may be of some use to you
     

    Attached Files:

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  11. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    Thanks very much Tony!

    A Divisional Regiment RAC was an armoured regiment configured for the anti-tank role in an infantry division, and from that WE, it looks like it was generally equivalent to an armoured regiment at the Lower Establishment.

    From a document that Tolbooth has kindly provided me with, this was the OOB for 'C' Sqn 8th Hussars during the Imjin River battles, which suggests that the squadron carrier troop had two carriers:

    Crossbelts.jpg

    So this looks like an improvisation that was unique to 8th Hussars in Korea, as far as I can tell. I wonder if the other squadrons also had an equivalent carrier troop?

    Note that the three attached Royal Artillery tanks are actually Cromwells, and these had an active and direct role in the Imjin battle - somethng that you don't hear about!

    Also, with regard to 16b, what on earth is a Cornet?
     
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  12. Tolbooth

    Tolbooth Patron Patron

    Cornet was the equivalent of 2nd Lt, supposedly abolished in 1871 but still used in some cavalry regiments (they do like to be different!)
     
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  13. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    [​IMG]
    Winston Churchill while serving as a cornet in the 4th Queen's Own Hussars (1895). Churchill's formal rank was second lieutenant.

    Cornet (rank) - Wikipedia.

    Learn someit nu everyday

    TD
     
  14. Vintage Wargaming

    Vintage Wargaming Well-Known Member

    They did like to blow their own trumpet, didn’t they.
     
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