No, I haven't yet, I have been told my Grandmother has his papers, ideally I want to get hold of those first to see what that reveals before I get his service records, unfortunately though my attempts at getting the papers are being met with some apprehension from my Mum and her siblings, also my Nan is in her 90's now, quite frail and approaching her to get her husbands papers will have to be done sensitively, in an ideal world I could of had them in 10 minutes as she lives up the road from me, but it is having to be handled carefully, my Dad is on the case with my Mum and trying to get hold of them etc as he understands what I want to do and what I want to uncover etc Yes I am sure many people have found themselves in similar situations like me, he wanted to not talk about it etc so that has filtered down through the family and I am being met with the same problem, but, it will all get revealed one day I am sure. The more I think about it, and if I am met with many more access problems from the family then I will get the service records as Andy suggested, all I need is his date or birth or death? As I don't have his service number, and being a Grandson am I able to apply for them?
I can imagine that is the case and is probably more common than people realised, like you say a misheard conversation etc can feed these stories of hero's. I don't think for one second this is the case with my Grandfather, and I hope it isn't the case, as I saw his medals when I was a youngster (admittedly medals can be given out for a host of other reasons), he showed me the scars from his wounds etc so I don't doubt any of it for any reason, however, I believe it is certainly possible for it to have happened especially at the time I can imagine what it would of been like if you were one of the ones that didn't fight for whatever reason.
James - I didn't for one second doubt that he hadn't fought - and re-reading my post I realise it could have been misconstrued, so my apologies. What I was talking about is the sort of everyday thing any historian - (and we're all historians when we do this kind of work) has to deal with. It's sometimes very difficult to see the wood for the trees -particularly when we're dealing with people's memories, which are the only thing we have to go on, but as frail as any other material that has been exposed to the elements for 70 years. There are so many conflicting stories and accounts and I don't believe that the truth is sitting there in an archive or a list, waiting to be discovered and nor does the fact that his name isn't apparent mean it's not out there somewhere. You're doing history at the sharp end, having to negotiate with families and opinions and stories and feelings and emotions. For instance, as a grandson, there are living relatives higher up the pecking order than you, whose permission you need to obtain your granddad's records. I just wanted to say good luck as it can be a bit of a grind or a delicate operation, so have patience and expect setbacks, but honestly, good luck.
James, Had a look today for a POW Liberation Questionnaire just in case he had become a POW but nothing there, l'm afraid. Do not read too much into that though as not everyone completed one. Regards, Nick KenFentonsWar.com
Hi all Sorr for reviving this thread, but, the last year or so have been difficult family wise! My Grandmother (the wife of my grandfather who's details I am trying to find) was diagnosed with terminal cancer around a year ago, she was finally taken from us around 6 weeks ago, so trying to find out details wasn't easy in that time. However, at the funeral a few days after her death with the family all there I decided to try and find out any details I could. His army papers were given to his son many years ago when he died in 1988, my uncle has since died and the army papers were discarded by my uncle when he was alive as he had no interest in them, which is frustrating! I spoke with my other Uncle who was my Grandfathers son in law as I found out he has the medals, and had a chat with him, he says my Grandfather only opens up on one occasion and he said that he was based in Egypt, so I presume that would fit in with the Middle East part that was mentioned earlier in the thread, and then he and his regiment (??) I presume were moved to the UK ready for the 1944 offensive onto Europe, he also said that my Grandfather was dropped into Arnhem and was involved in an attack involving a bridge, he was shot in the engagement and was one of very few to survive? I believe he was got out by allied forces as opposed to German forces and wasn't taken prisoner. My grandfather was also a Sargeant if that helps,with any further info that could be found in any archives. Can a person be found by surname and place of birth? His birth year was 1919, and town was Torquay, but registrations at the time may have shown Newton Abbot. I asked my auntie about any info that might of been on the medals but he said they aren't personalised medals, they are more just 'batch' medals if that sounds right. I hope these extra details might be able to help a little bit, maybe drop the Norman bit from any searches as apparently he didn't use that very often, he was also,known by the whole family as 'Pop' no idea if that helps in any nicknames etc Anyway, my apologies for the late reply etc but as you can imagine with the illness and death over the last year his direct descendants didn't make things very easy understandably. Many thanks, James.
Thank you, and yes, being at the sharp end it is difficult, especially with something so raw as the war, many people like to put it to the back'of there minds and never talk about it. I am sure I will get there one day!!!
Hi James His original service records will still be with the MOD in Glasgow. You can obtain a copy of them for thirty English pounds.
Cyril N Mitchell in the England & Wales, Birth Index, 1916-2005 Name: Cyril N Mitchell Mother's Maiden Surname: Clark Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1919 Registration district: Newton Abbot Inferred County: Devonshire Volume Number: 5b Page Number: 158 Cyril Norman Mitchell in the England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2007 Name: Cyril Norman Mitchell Birth Date: 4 Apr 1919 Date of Registration: Apr 1988 Age at Death: 69 Registration district: Torbay Inferred County: Devon Volume: 21 Page: 2233 TD edited to add: He appears on an Ancestry family tree if you are interested - unless its your tree
It's the only way - and you can only say it so many times, but I'll just repeat it - get his army records.
Hi I too had problems finding my Dad's service number to apply for his records and he had apparently lied about his age to join the army in 1923, then two years down the line someone mentioned in a forum that if a child was born to service personnel the number would be on their birth certificate, lo and behold my brother was born in 1941 (a Dunkirk baby) Dad's number was on his birth certificate, so if your parents or Uncles and Aunts were born during the war it would be there. Kind regards Jennifer
Dad's brother was in 1st Airborne at Arnhem, glider troops formed from the South Staffordshire Regiment among others and a dear friend John who was in 2 Para MMG who went in on day two when the Germans were waiting for them, he was just 18 and it was his first drop since his training. Kind regards Jennifer
You don't need a service number to apply for a copy of a soldiers service records, his date of birth will do.
Jennifer The 1st and 2nd Parachute Battalions were part of 1st Parachute Brigade and both dropped on the 17th September, the first day of the operation. The 4th Parachute Brigade were the ones that dropped on the 2nd day and comprised the 10th, 11th and 156 Parachute Battalions. The South Staffords were Glider Borne infantry and they were split with part landing on the first day of the operation with the balance coming in on the 2nd day. What was your dad's brother's name? John
Hi My apologies John, Dad's brother was Cpl Heber Cooke, he went in on the first day and eventually escaped across the Rhine, John (Selvey) i'm afraid is suffering from dementia and his memory with certain things is mixed up, he remembers coming in on the 2nd day and said 'they were waiting for us' he was carrying a vickers machine gun, he made it to the ground and was eventually helped by another guy from a different unit (Jimmy Ussher) and did manage to escape the conflict. It must have been so terrifying for him being such a young age and his first drop into combat, he remembers more of his posting to Palestine later on, he might have been mixing that up with the unit he was with at Arnhem. I've attached a newspaper clipping relating to Uncle Heb, my Dad and their brothers and also one of John (kneeling) in Palestine. Kind regards Jennifer
Hi Drew I very much appreciate that it was either service number or birth date, my particular problem was that my Dad had lied about his age when he joined up in 1923, so I had been told by an elderly relative, and I didn't want to risk £30 and the possibility of his record not being found. Dad's name is very common. Kind regards Jennifer
Hi Jennifer I assume this is S/Sgt G Cooke: George William Cooke 1906–1963 BIRTH 4 FEB 1906 • Walsall, Staffordshire, England DEATH 11 JUN 1963 • Staffordshire, England This is Pte Joseph Cooke: Joseph Raymond Cooke 1911–1944 BIRTH 1911 • Walsall, Staffordshire DEATH 10 JULY 1944 • Caen, France This Cpl Heber Cooke: heber cooke 1913–1995 BIRTH 3RD MARCH 1913 DEATH APR 1995 • Walsall, Staffordshire, England This might be Pte Dennis Cooke: Name: Dennis Cooke Mother's Maiden Surname: Cooke Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1923 Registration district: Walsall Inferred County: Worcestershire Volume Number: 6b Page Number: 1210 I hope these are right, if not then let me know Parents for above are: Father: George Heber Cooke Mother: Mary Jane Moul TD
Hi TD Spot on with the details. However Uncle Dennis (and Uncle John) were half brothers, as Granddad was playing away and the reason Dad lied about his age and joined the Army, sadly I was never able to find either of them when I was doing my family tree. Mary Jane Moul was my Grandmother and Ivy Groutage was Dennis and John's Mum. Kind regards Jennifer
