Battle of Keren: toughest of them all?

Discussion in 'North Africa & the Med' started by Warlord, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. Uncle Jack

    Uncle Jack Member

    Keren February March 1941
    Here is an extract from the personal diary of my father in law Clarrie ... at this time Sgt/Sur HIRD C E of 'R' Troop 4th Durham Survey Regiment.

    By way of background the 4th was a TA regiment set up in Gateshead in early 1937 and took in only selected men to train as surveyors and then feed them on to be OCTU candidates if/when war was declared.

    Early in 1939 with war on the horizon the catchment was expanded to enable the embodiment of a full Survey Regiment of Officers, NCO's and Surveyors. They were over subscribed and late in 1939 drafted out a core of men to form the 6th Survey Regiment.

    Clarrie joined in April 1939 and qualified as Surveyor later that year. On declaration of war the regiment drafted in all the supporting men needed for active service. The regiment also accelerated the technical training - Clarrie passed his Surveyor tests and was rapidly promoted to Bombardier and then L/Sgt. His father (also CEH) had been a test driver for Rover before the Great War and served in the RNAS (Isle of Grain) on MT Mechanic duties so it was no surprise that Clarrie jr was assigned to MT Duties and 'got his gun' as they moved the MT to the port for embarkation in October 1940.

    Originally the regiment was being readied for movement to France but in May 1940 all changed and they were rapidly put to work surveying defensive positions in England extending their work on Coastal batteries and RA ranges to include more defensive positions and the detail of stop lines in case of invasion.

    An intensive training programme in the Autumn of 1940 prepared them for the move to N Africa - arriving in Egypt in late December (advance party with MT on 26th and Main party on 31st) .... they barely had time to collect all the MT and stores before 'Y' Troop ( Flash Spotting) was sent forward to Sudan and Erirtea on 11 January 1941.

    The Sound Rangers of 'R' Troop had time to acclimatise and followed on 11 February.

    The War Diary for Y Troop is attached and unusually for this Regiment includes a nominal roll for all ranks, list of casualties and list of vehicles.

    We've not found a War Dairy for 'R' Troop....

    Robin
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    The last words of C.G. Miles of the 4th RTR at Halfaya speak for themselves:

    "Good God! They've got large calibre guns dug in and they're tearing my tanks to bits!"

    Suddenly, the "Queen of the Battlefield" was no more...
     
  3. BritishMilitaryHistory

    BritishMilitaryHistory Junior Member

    It is pleasing to see some informed debate over the East African Campaign, the Battle for Keren and the role of the Indian Army.

    My personal view is that for us as historians, it is very difficult to compare whether one battle was more or less tough than another. I am aware that one person's personal experience of a battle can be very different to another who participated in the same battle. Not many commanders such as BATEMAN actually took part in more than one major battle, so his opinion is to be valued.

    The problem with the Battle for Keren is it took place early in the war, it took place in Eritrea, it involved British Indian formations against Italian formations, it was poorly documented by war correspondents and was eclipsed by later events. Having studied the battle, I feel it was a superb feat of arms by the British and Indian troops against a well disciplined and determined enemy. What has to be remembered is that there was little air support, communications were poor (few radios at battalion level so telephone lines and runners were the order of the day), the topography was horrendous, the weather hot and dry, and the attackers were assaulting well prepared defensive positions.

    Whilst not actually at Karen, but in the hills approaching the main Keren positions, consider the bravery of Major Mark HOLLIS. The Highland Light Infantry were tasked with taking the fortified positions at the top of the hills. They attacked on Wednesday 29 January 1941 with great determination despite heavy casualties, with the company commander Major Mark William HOLLIS showing great leadership. The Italians counter attacked and drove the small force from the summit. HOLLIS, who was badly wounded in the body and head, ordered his platoon sergeant major to withdraw and leave him behind. Three days later, the summit was recaptured and the graves of the fallen, including Hollis located. He was recommended for a posthumous Victoria Cross, however, one was not awarded due to the lack of witnesses. Major 63628 Mark William HOLLIS, who was aged twenty-six years and a Regular Army officer, is now buried in Grave 1.D.2. in the Keren War Cemetery, Eritrea.
     
  4. Warlord

    Warlord Veteran wannabe

    On the Pimple and the Pinnacle?
     
  5. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    Must have been some fairly heavy fighting; In this most successful attack, which broke through to Keren, 2nd Camerons alone, lost 209 casualties, 41% of their strength in the assaults to take the 8,000 foot Mount Sanchil and Brig's peak.
     
  6. Mechili

    Mechili New Member

    Hi to all,

    In some of the posts above I read that air and artillery support for the Commonwealth forces at Keren was "inadequate", and that the Italian defenses were "well prepared".

    In fact that was not the Italian experience of Keren. British air support was markedly superior to the Italian one - the Italian air force in East Africa had fought well so far, but it had shot its bolt by then and its effectiveness was declining. The effect of British air superiority at Keren was telling. Even more telling, and actually decisive, was the artillery support which is commonly recognized in Italian sources as one of the battle-winning assets for the Commonwealth. British artillery, operating out of Italian counterbattery range and virtually safe from air attacks, is described as fearsome and extremely powerful, absolutely instrumental in opening breaches along the front, hampering the manoeuvre of the reserves, causing heavy damage and contributing to the final collapse of the morale of many colonial troops.

    As for the Italian positions, they were not well prepared, by any standards. The mountain range was in itself a fortress, but to imagine a sort of Maginot or even just a Mareth Line, as some British accounts seem to purport, is very misleading - a total misconception. Italian postions were largely improvised, as no serious line construction works had ever been implemented before the war and the troops had to hastily dig in and feverishly improve their hastily thrown up defensive positions with what scanty materials they had at hand in the few days between the start of the British offensive and the earliest attack on Keren. All Italian accounts underscore the weakness of the defensive positions for want of materials (barbed wire, mines, digging tools etc.) and also due to sheer lack of time.
     
    bitoque likes this.
  7. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Mechili

    as your name implies - you will be familiar with the efficiency of the Italian Artillery as it was held to be the most efficient units of all the Italian units even without the direction of Rommel on his first foray from El Aghelia through Mechili - they were always held in high esteem by the British Army - BUT their analysis of Battles when the noise had ceased was a place for high comedy as I recall a book and film of how they won - all by themselves the third battle of El Alamein...which might have surprised even Monty if he ever heard of them......so I would say that to use their account of the Keren Battles would need a very large bag of salt alongside a box of kleenex to wipe up the tears of hilarlty

    Cheers
     
  8. Mechili

    Mechili New Member

    Tom Canning

    If your reply was meant to make people laugh, or to laugh down what I wrote, I regret informing you I can not join in the laugh.

    Having read a good many things on WWII, in your own language as well as others, I am fully aware of the high repute Italian artillery is held in in some English language sources. However, thus far I've never come across books or films (any language, any country) wherein Italian artillery wins Third Alamein. I'd be grateful if you shared the titles of those books and movies for me to check on them.

    I hope you realise that pooh-poohing the accounts of any participants in a battle merely based on their ethnicity smacks of, at best, ugly bias. Worse, it is highly unscientific. There is much to learn from all accounts regardless of which side produced them - to learn not only from what they say and how they say it, but also from what they carefully omit to say.

    In particular, I would say that using certain Allied, and especially British/Commonwealth, accounts of a number of battles needs not only a somewhat large bag of salt, but also an electron microscope connected to a lie detector - to detect clever omissions along with manipulations of truth. Flavoured with ethnical bias. Excellent scholars and researchers, unbeknownst - it seems - to many British WWII history fans, have been and are at work to critically analyze and clean up those accounts and provide a fairer historical view by doing something which in many a classic British account is sorely lacking - going through sources of all belligerents, collating and cross-referencing them. A painstaking work that takes time, but also quite rewarding.

    Cheers
     
    bitoque likes this.
  9. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Mechili

    My posting was not intended to make anyone laugh - or cry for that matter - but to inform all of my long held view of the efficiency of Italian Artillery which was indeed fearsome at times......but to ask me to recall the actual name of a book read more than 25 years ago is stretching it a bit far- although the memory lingers on as being quite funny - and as you correctly point out smacks of ugly bias - and of which I would plead guilty in this particular case.......whilst at the same time recognizing some bias of your own in suggesting that more technology is required to study the British and Commonwealth accounts of various battles - with which I would again agree as I have a reputation of being "Harsh"
    on many authors - many claiming to be respected Historians who fail to undertake the most elementary research in the rush to sell their product....I can quote just two of these so called reputed historians - one who fictionalized the death of my Troop leader and his crew - the other - a world famous Pulitzer prize winner who claimed that it was the 17th battalion of the 21st Lancers who captured a village in the Lilri Valley in May of '44 - truly they deserve harsh treatment- and if you persist in claiming that the mountains of Keren were not truly defensive and that the British Air Forces were more than adequate - then I shall be inclined to add your name to my "harsh" column as I suspect your copy of the Keren Battles fall into the Fiction list

    Cheers
    for the truth of the fiction of my Troop leaders death- see my article which I felt should be written as an attempt to offset the fiction - "The Battle for San Martino " in the BBC series below - as THAT is historical FACT...,
     
  10. Mechili

    Mechili New Member

    Tom Canning

    We can rather easily arrive at an acceptable compromise over the statements I begged to differ about. The mountains of Keren were truly defensive, in themselves, although - and there's document evidence of it - they had just been hastily and inadequately arranged as defensive positions shortly before the British attacked them.

    As well, while the RAF over Keren was not so powerful as their own ground troops may have hoped for, it was superior to what offensive or defensive airpower the Italians could muster, and it did have a telling effect on both the Italian ability to stand up to the offensive in the long run, and the colonial troops' morale. Which, besides, is just obvious. Air superiority counts for something.

    Accounts of all participants in a given feat of arms can not be slighted outright and must be read, analysed and sifted before accepting, questioning or rejecting them, as your own experience confirms. Your eyewitness evidence provides critical elements of truth about those specific facts and without it, some authors fictionalized them - in good or bad faith, I can't know.

    To which I would like to add that, human nature and the limits of human experience and knowledge being what they are, the same fact can be seen in as different ways as the number of people attending or taking part in it. Very rarely all accounts of the same combat action entirely concur on its course and details. Various reasons why can be brought forward for that, the most basic of all being just the fact that we differ from each other, and so differ our points of view. But that does not necessarily imply that any one or more than one of those viewpoints be false or forged or fictional. It's just different.

    When during Third Alamein a tank battalion of the Littorio Division captured 200 (or 300 according to other sources) Australians in the wake of a bold and lucky night and early morning attack, the battalion commander - who was aware of the high repute Australians were held in as combat troops, on both sides of the front - was amazed at seeing a crowd of tired out, befuddled, meek and despondent men instead of the unyielding heroes he would expect. That witness, I am afraid, doesn't fit in well with the ANZAC image. But it doesn't by any means detract from the Australians' merit (they had fought spectacularly well the previous day) and is nonetheless credible, as the experience of capture is the same for most men, irrespective of the nation they belong to.

    Cheers
     
  11. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Mechili

    gave you verse and chapter in my response - and lost the lot - so here we go once more....as we can somehow agree to compromise many of the challenges -BUT - The mountains of Keren are truly big - as are most mountains - whether they are properly prepared or not the fact is that tired men have to climb them with large packs whilst being shot at from above - by no means an easy task - we had a similar excuse from the Germans who claimed that the Gothic Line was not fully prepared - over many months by skilled engineers- nevertheless it still cost us 14,000 killed in less than a month with thousands wounded and many had to be shipped down to Sicily to be patched up as the six hospitals couldn't handle them all

    we can also agree that many people have different perspectives and can often disguise the truth which then requires a great amount of digging to reveal it

    Thinking of which - I turn to the claim of the Tank Battalion Commander who had captured 2/300 tired out, befuddled, meek and despondent men- which has a great ring of truth as it is quite easy to capture Infantry with a Tank as they know that you have two machine guns ready to blow their heads off at the first wrong move....but then he spoils it all by claiming them to be Australians..which had me scurrying to my Order of Battle for that event..and lo and behold I find that the LITTORIO Armoured Division was NO WHERE NEAR THE AUSTRALIAN 9th Division - as they were fully occupied by the 2nd SOUTH AFRICAN Division all through that battle..which is probably why it doesn't fit the ANZAC image .....

    Cheers
     
  12. grayden

    grayden Member

    Hi Everyone,
    Had my head down for a while busy with my book. Just on the battle for Keren as my uncle was in the 2nd West Yorks and was in the fighting for Fort Dologorodoc. Can anyone give me the position or location of the fort or the mountains Zebdan. Brigadiers Peak, Pimple, Pinnacle Hill etc. I know they are on the Southern approach to Keren but I can't find them listed on any maps.
    Thanks

    Graham
     
  13. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Graham
    I think you might find that many of the names you are looking for are Army positions and would only show on their maps..apart from Zebdan which is due south of Keren - the others are SW….try googling or the "Battle of Keren" for Army maps

    Cheers
     
  14. grayden

    grayden Member

    Thanks Tom,
    Spent a long time Googling them especially the Mountain Names like Sanchil and Felestoh but I can't find them marked on any google map, I know roughly where they are but not exactly, and I would like to construct a sketch map. There,s no map in the war diaries either I have come across some for other battles.
    Regards,

    Graham
    Edit.
    just found one followed your suggestion and added ';Army maps of battle of Keren'
    Thanks again Tom
     
  15. sol

    sol Very Senior Member

  16. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

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